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Comment by colinmhayes | Hacker News Reader

Open the border. No reason people born somewhere shouldn't have the same opportunities as people born here beside greed.

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Wanting to make a livable wage is not greed.

Besides, unchecked migration would lead not only to seriously depressed wages but also massive social issues.

When it's done by stealing opportunities from the poor it is.

The issue isn't "unchecked" migration and a yes/no checkbox on a "livable" wage, you're making a category error and implying every anti-immigrant trope of the past 150 years. Your comment serves as an attempt to change the subject.

Immigration wasn't a problem until Trump decided it was, rigorous thinker that he is.

Immigration has a direct impact on the labor market. Unlimited migration would likely outpace any sort of economic growth and massively depress wages. I would not look forward to competing with an order of magnitude more candidates for jobs with mediocre pay.

> Your comment serves as an attempt to change the subject

That's funny because you did not refute anything I said and just brought up Trump, whose opinion I couldn't care less about.

Immigration has been limited for many years, and both parties support limits, it’s not a new idea that came from Trump. Personally I support open borders. I do believe it would reduce wages for some locals, but overall the dramatic increase in net welfare would be well worth it. There’s no need to bring up Trump - this view is so far from the Overton window that current political figures are barely relevant.

Not wanting completely open borders isn't "greed" by any definition I'm aware of. It's a fairly normal level of human self interest.

Historically, before the two world wars one could pretty much live and travel anywhere in the world. Passports and visas are a relatively recent invention.

https://fee.org/articles/passports-were-a-temporary-war-meas...

Sadly, the primary way that the abstract concept of sovereignty is expressed concretely is by erecting and enforcing borders, thus defining who is in (citizen) or out (alien). This power is established, even reinforced, by the arbitrariness that a state can include or exclude aliens on a whim. I can't think of a way to change this for physical borders given the entire world has settled on this system, and it seems more borders are being erected for the digital world too. You'd need to take down the concept of a state with a finite realm of influence to take these borders down.

It is my experience that most people who advocate for open borders do so primarily out of human-rights considerations, yet do not adequately reckon (if even at all) with the national security implications of these policies. The unfortunate fact is that there are hostile nations and organizations whose leaders would happily take every advantage that they can get.

Contemporary events in Syria/Iraq and Ukraine come to mind.

Obviously don' open the border to terrorists. The government is already watching everyone in the world, it wouldnt be that difficult to mark people as security threats.

Yes, because open borders would do wonders for the countries suddenly losing every intelligent citizen worth their salt to the US. Why do so many left leaning social good initiatives tend to hug a tree while the surrounding forest gets fire bombed?

The only people who seriously consider open borders don’t have the slightest idea how desperate 3 billion people around the world are to enter the US.

3 billion Americans is the goal

Agreed, but I would go further: we should immediately issue passports for everyone in the world who submits an online application without prejudice.

There's a great book by Matthew Yglesias called One Billion Americans that discusses how important this is.

Biden, get it done!

If nowhere else opens their borders why should the US?

To get the best and the brightest from other lands to further enrich the US society which is much better primed to be a fully heterogeneous one than most anywhere else on the planet, and that’s just from an economic advancement point of view, not a moralistic one.

For clarity, I’m making no argument for merit based entrance. You don’t know who the best and brightest are when they’re crossing the border, and you don’t know who’s descendants are going to make the world better for you and yours.

The policy that follows from that is "fix our immigration policy that more of the brightest can get in", not "open the border" (which I interpret as allowing anyone to work in the US[1]).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_border

> You don’t know who the best and brightest are when they’re crossing the border

Not sure how anyone can say stuff like this with a straight face. Of course you know. In fact, we already have programs to get these people into the US on a faster track. There are problems with these programs, like any, that we should improve. Opening the borders to all comers is not a viable option.

Who is suggesting "opening the borders to all comers?" Honest question.

gp poster, I’d love to see it.

Several people in this very thread, including the comment almost directly above yours:

"Agreed, but I would go further: we should immediately issue passports for everyone in the world who submits an online application without prejudice."

Yes, this lunacy is a real idea being discussed on Hacker News. We need to hit a big fat reset button on California, I swear.

Try to get a tourist Visa in Canada. Next try the US. You’ll see a world of difference.

Next compare what it takes to work in Canada vs the US. Also stark differences.

We don’t need 100% open borders, but “open with reasonable security procedures” seems perfectly reasonable.

But then people want to go to US not Canada...

And Canada is.... Canada.

Canada is one of the top destinations for immigrants from all around the world.

> But then people want to go to US not Canada...

What? There are a good 4 billion people that would give up their firstborn to immigrate to Canada.

I don't know the difference, and I'm not being snarky (honest). Is Canada easier or harder?

I wouldn't say easier (this depends on your personal situation). But it is definitely far more sane.

Canada is different, not easier.

Not much difference if you are from Kazakhstan or most of the xUSSR.

Everywhere else should also open borders.

There are plenty of places with far fewer restrictions than the US. And something can be a good idea even if no one else is doing it yet.

Sure. But every country has a process. The OP suggested opening the border as in have 0 restrictions rather than fewer.

Something is a bad idea because it hasn’t been done before?

Maybe since the foundation of nation states, humans have been pondering immigration, and everyone in modern history has it wrong except you?

I must’ve forgot that famous hacker ethos, if it hasn’t been done before don’t bother trying.

As Ukraine how it feels about its border with Russia.

What's wrong with the luck of the draw?

Is greed unacceptable?

What's with the obtuse questions? It's okay and even expected to be somewhat bad, but it's still better to not be bad.

Would you apply the same argument to your front door?

My front door exists as a result of my labor.

Everything nice in the US exists as a result of Americans' labor.

Are you going to send all your money to people more disadvantaged than you? There's no reason they shouldn't have your money beside greed.

Yes I donate around half my income to effective charities every year. Hoping to continually up those numbers.

That's still you exercising your control over your salary. You get to choose how much to donate, and you choose the salaries.

Why not let other people just take what they please from your wallet? That's what you propose for the country you live in, effectively.

I earned the money I have. Citizens didn't earn their citizenship. You're completely misguided too, immigration is in no way akin to "giving people free money." It's very difficult to immigrate. I would love to kick everyone who was born here out and make them reapply with the same process as want to be immigrants.

An excellent policy if you wanted to bring about the destruction of a nation.

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