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Comment by dkersten | Hacker News Reader

I use a slightly configured Kinesis Advantage 2 and colemak as my keyboard layout (I used to make the Kinesis do the colemak, but now its just qwerty and the OS handles colemak). I find typing on it extremely comfortable. I've also found these beneficial: https://www.mycarpaltunnel.com/

I like Ergodox, especially because of their super flexible configuration, but I dislike the flatness of the keyboard compared to the Kinesis and last time I looked, they limited the length of macros "so you don't store passwords in them".. ehh, that's a stupid reason for adding limitations. As an adult, I can make my own decisions on what I store in my macros, thanks (I use a password manager, so its not passwords)

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The makers of the Ergodox EZ (it's open source so you can get Ergodoxes from various sources as well as build your own) also make the Moonlander, which is a step closer to the Kinesis in shape.

I looked into it as a potentially more mobile alternative to the Kinesis but decided to stick with the Kinesis.

I'm hoping if my current keyboard ever dies Kinesis will have a new QMK-based version that comes in two halves, or that the Dactyl Manuform becomes something that you can buy a solid transportable version of.

Dactyl manuform user here. That's definitely my only complaint. The dactyl is the absolute perfect keyboard, except for the fact that it's a nightmare to transport anywhere. If I have to take it anywhere I carry it in a paper shopping bag with nothing else in it. It's not a cheap keyboard either, so getting one for work and one for home is a hit to the wallet.

I recently grabbed a keyboardio atreus for travel and laptop use. Not nearly as ergonomic as the dactyl, but still a very nice keyboard in it's own right.

Have you tried the Dactyl-Manuform mini ? https://github.com/l4u/dactyl-manuform-mini-keyboard

> the Moonlander, which is a step closer to the Kinesis in shape

Just took a look, doesn't really look much difference. I mean the 3d curvature of the keys, your hand is kinda in a semi circular channel. I just find it comfortable, especially to reach the furthest rows of keys from the home row. Its not a huge deal, just something I like about the Kinesis. I also use the Kinesis foot pedals -- does something similar exist for the Ergodox? I didn't see one at my quick look, but I also didn't look very hard.

You'd have to mod the case and do some wiring, but since the ErgoDox is just a Teensy running QMK you could in principle hack it. I think all you would have to do is find an unused pin on the uC and then wire that pin to the foot pedal and recompile the firmware.

But the only real advantage to the ErgoDox over the Kinesis in my opinion is that it runs QMK: the key-wells are more ergonomic and the thumb cluster is better positioned because of the slight vertical height difference. And if you get a Stapelberg converter[1] PCB made, it doesn't look that bad to add.

[1] https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2013-03-21-kinesis_custo...

The Moonlander lets you angle the thumb cluster seprately, where the ergodox ez is a single flat plane.

For the bowl shape, you'd need to look at something like the Dactyl Manuform I mentioned.

Many split keyboards transfer keypresses from one side to the other via simple audio cables, I believe footpedals could be spliced in there too, but that's just speculation.

Most often the audio cable carries serial port signals (not proper RS232 afaict but logically a com port). Splicing in a pedal should be doable, as long as you don't press it simultaneously with a key on the "remote" part of the split keyboard.

I²C, at least originally (I haven't kept up with all the later variations), so you could put multiple devices on the bus, assuming firmware support.

The Dactyl looks great, thanks. Yeah, I think hacking a foot pedal in wouldn't be the toughest job.

Believe it or not, I was an Advantage II user but switched to Moonlander because I find it easier to type on. For some reason my pinkies always felt weak typing on the Kinesis.

What do you use the foot pedal for? I had a hard time understanding what it's useful for.

Given the rapid development of the hobbyist landscape from 3D printing, I suspect it will only be a matter of time before Kinesis comes out with a split design.

Although the Kinesis is actually very easy to mod, and there are quite good resources on replacing the microcontroller with something that can run QMK. If you're not familiar, here's a link[1] to a PCB design that will route the ribbon cables to a Teensy.

[1] https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2020-07-09-kint-kinesis-...

Uh, Kinesis has several split designs already (Freestyle 1/2/Pro/Edge). Not shaped like the Advantage, but I’m pretty sure shaping is not popular enough to sustain the kind of volume they aim for.

To be honest, I just wish they had an ortho version of the FS Pro.

You're right, I had assumed it was obvious from context since we were talking about the Advantage and Dactyl-Manuform specifically.

The market may be there though, since the Advantage has basically been the companies main product for RSI mitigation for decades and not gamers wanting a split to get the mouse closer in.

You have to build it by hand, but check out the Dactyl or Dactyl Manuform. I think they're about the pinnacle of the erg keyboard world. 3d shape like a Kinesis but with more optimization for wrist angle and allows you to customize wrist rotation and split.

Looks like you can get them built here: https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-manufor... They look pretty good!

Seems like the limit is 32 characters. That probably covers 99% of passwords ever made.

Even if you use a password manager you can still benefit from storing your master password as a macro, that allows you to have a very long one (at least up to 32 characters) without suffering the negative effects of that (it being a pain in the ass to type all the time).

It doesn't seem unsafe to me, although at first glance it's reasonable to be suspicious. Macro memory is lost if the keyboard is unplugged for a short amount of time, like if somebody swiped it off your desk. Nobody will know you store your password in your keyboard unless you tell them. It may be difficult to even figure out what key combinations trigger the macro; you can make it very complicated with multiple layers. As far as I know, there is no way to pull the layout back off the Ergodox and view it in the configuration tool, so you couldn't just easily look up what the macro combo is. You use 2 factor on everything important anyway right?

If somebody had access to your keyboard to do this, it would be much easier to just plug a keylogger in between the keyboard and PC.

EDIT: it seems likely I misinterpreted what they meant.

I think the parent is talking about the limit in Oryx, their online configuration tool. In Oryx, they limit macros to 4 characters. It's not because storing passwords on the keyboard is unsafe, it's because storing passwords in Oryx is unsafe. They're stored in plaintext and publicly visible.

In response to the parent, you can configure longer macros using QMK directly.

Ahh, so the restriction is in the UI not the firmware. Ok, that makes sense. It wasn't clear to me when I looked at and tried to set a macro. I still think they should just have a big red warning instead of limiting it, though.

There are keyboards for people who want a truly ergonomic input system and there are keyboards for fanboys

Kinesis advantage 2 is for the first kind and ergodox is for the fanboys

The most efficient tools are usually the most ugly and boring ones

That’s not an educated take.

Just to take my own example, I’m unable to use the Kinesis Advantage because the bones in my right wrist are curved following an old injury. I’m physically incompatible with that keyboard.

But split keyboards work great for me! I can rotate one side to accommodate my arm’s curve. Kinesis Freestyle is great for this. Ergodox also works.

By your logic, I guess this makes me a fanboy?

My point is that different people have different ergonomic needs, requiring different devices. It’s stupid as hell to turn this kind of thing into in-group status symbol pecking. The market for these devices exists because one size does not fit all.

I'm going to be downvoted again, but what I'm trying to say is that Ergodox is to ergonomic keyboard what GraphQL is to REST.

There are some specific use case in which Ergodox is better but most of the time the best choice is to go with Kinesis.

> There are some specific use case in which Ergodox is better but most of the time the best choice is to go with Kinesis.

Probably could have said just this and it would have communicated your point without coming across as a condescending asshole.

This is very unhelpful comment. They're both excellent keyboards in their own right and offer different features depending on what you're looking for.

> There are keyboards for people who want a truly ergonomic input system and there are keyboards for fanboys

> Kinesis advantage 2 is for the first kind and ergodox is for the fanboys

Maybe it's true, but I bought the Moonlander (same brand as ergodox) for ergonomic reasons. It allowed my hands to be more in line with my shoulders and reduced shoulder pain/tightness I would have at the end of the day.

I want to try the Kinesis advantage, but one thing stopping me is the fact that it's not a split keyboard. I think it's likely my natural arm position is wider than the Kinesis.

> The most efficient tools are usually the most ugly and boring ones

I think there's some truth to this, but speaking it as such an absolute truth seems misguided.

I disagree. Ergodox-type keyboards are:

* More affordable.

* More portable.

* More configurable, both hardware and software.

Under your last statement, an Ergodox would be the more efficient tool for quite some people.

I do like the configurability of the ergodox (and OSS firmware), but, I like the Kinesis hardware better.

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