Comment by adjkant | Hacker News Reader

Comment by adjkant | Hacker News Reader

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> Do you mind giving examples of what you have access to in NYC when so many things are shuttered right now?

Right now, I've basically reallocated my budget of city activities towards local restaurants, and I've been eating a ton of great delivery. As the cases have slowed, I'm cautiously considering outdoor dining. Either way, I'm eating great food right now.

I live in Brooklyn, so Prospect Park (central park of the borough) is always nice for walks or distanced picnics with friends. My local neighborhood is also just generally pleasant for walks. Many outdoor farmers markets are still in full swing.

There's an outdoor climbing gym in Dumbo that I can walk to from my apartment, and I go there now as well even. Full contact tracing, check-in/out, reservation system, the whole nine yards. Not many places have a large outdoor climbing gym.

All of this is also powered by people actually following mask laws and it being summer. I'm fully aware winter is going to be less fun, but I'm ready to weather that and order lots of good delivery.

> As for "white flight" it's more of a "white collar flight" where people with money and resources and higher income remote jobs will leave as long as living conditions suck.

Well put, and I think that will be a big positive for cities if it continues.

Take your fake wall. I have the sierras at my back door.

And I'm happy for you! I'm not saying everyone values the same things, I'm just sharing my perspective and noting that it's not an uncommon one within the context of what this means at an economic and cultural level. For someone who strongly values being directly in nature, I'd certainly point them in your direction before mine!

So uncharitable, and false. Unless you were already remote in Gold Country or Markleeville, your “back door” was a 3-5 hour drive each way, depending on traffic. Kinda kills your efficient carbon footprint for living in a city. Been there, done that, moved away from the Bay Area to avoid exactly that. And I would climb at Mission Cliffs after work to be ready for that weekend in the Sierra—-and wasn’t alone in doing so.

I love the Sierras and have spent a lot of nights in the backcountry, but good luck getting any permits now. Pre-pandemic it was already extremely difficult. Now you need to get up at 7am and grab a day use ticket to even enter Yosemite (or even drive through!).

Most of the Sierras don’t require any type of permit or ticket to access. I’ve noticed among techie friends with a new desire to go outdoors a belief that they need to make an appointment to enjoy nature, and since all the appointments are taken online, there is no nature to enjoy. Or to google for “best hike San Francisco”, go there, and find that the parking is full.

In fact the nature is much larger than the city, and it’s most entirely empty if you aren’t intentionally visiting the most popular spots.

I’m sure most of the Sierras don’t require day use reservations, but I’m pretty sure nearly all of it requires permits for car camping or backcountry camping, and those permits are difficult to get (apart from taking the risk of showing up for a walk-in permit).

And I understand the stereotype of the techie who thinks Yosemite Valley reservations is the only way to enjoy nature, but I don’t think that’s me. I’ve been on dozens of trips to the Sierras and I’m fairly experienced with the various permit systems. That said, I’m sure there are still less-travelled gems that I haven’t discovered. :)

As far as I know, the national forests (excluding the designated wilderness ares) don’t require permits for dispersed camping, which includes car camping.

Sure, I agree, certainly permits are required in some locations yes. But you can usually find something available. Even locations off the beaten path. There are a lot more options to climb along the hundreds of miles of mountain range when compared to a city.

We got permits for desolation wilderness fairly easily in June.

With the exception of a specialized gym for climbing, none of what you've listed is anything unique to an urban environment. I've lived in various suburbs my whole life and have everything else you've listed. For much of that time, I also had a private backyard, which is something you generally don't get in urbia.

You can't beat the efficiency of an urban environment though.

I think you underestimate the density of restaurants and cuisines available. No suburb I have encountered gets close to matching this situation. Suburbs also typically require cars, something I don't own and never want to own. I don't want a backyard either as that just means another thing to maintain against entropy!

All of this to say, it depends on what you value :)

Yeah I’m not sure why people don’t get that walking past the climbing gym, a hundred varied restaurants, and a wide assortment of local shops on the way home is different than driving 20 minutes to go eat or go to the gym.

My complaint about all these articles is prices have barely changed in NY and SF but they all like to proclaim some huge shift. Every time I check to see if there really are major discounts and I’m disappointed.

> My complaint about all these articles is prices have barely changed in NY and SF but they all like to proclaim some huge shift. Every time I check to see if there really are major discounts and I’m disappointed.

From my searching in NYC prices, it seems like this is happening not in average prices but in the bottom of the market, and within specific neighborhoods. West Village prices aren't going to drop, but some places like say Astoria, Gowanus, Williamsburg, Greenpoint, and the like are going to have more decent places hit some record lows. I recently found a place 5 blocks from me that was 1.2K cheaper a month. Yes, it lacked some amenities and the location is worse, but that type of gap would have never existed pre-pandemic.

I know someone who explicitly moved into my neighborhood off of one of these deals, and without it they would have been in a much cheaper neighborhood. I suspect that type of movement is going to have ripple effects into outer borough pricing which could then make cheaper space.

I think we also are still not done seeing the shoe fall. These moves take time, even if already planned. The sublet market is going to shit in most cities on the seller side, which won't be reflected until those leases end. West Village prices might not fall in 2020, but they may in 2021. As time goes on with this pandemic, we also have to factor in that stagnation can also effectively be a drop.

Good points. And interesting you see it on the lower end, since I think the conventional wisdom is the high end might crash first.

I personally do think because of the eviction moratorium that we will see bigger decreases to come, but I also think it will rebound hard in main areas as you say because everyone always wants to be in the Village

I think people get it, but they also get that in lockdown these benefits disappear.

There was an interesting article in the guardian newspaper early in the UK lockdown that looked at the implicit social contract in city life - I may live in a small apartment, perhaps even sharing it with several others, but that is less important when the city is outside my door, it's just somewhere to sleep. If the city effectively ceases to be outside your door for weeks or months, you may decide that having a bigger place of your own with your own outdoor space is actually a pretty good prospect. And that thought may not go away even when things open up again.

> If the city effectively ceases to be outside your door for weeks or months

I think the key here is that even in the pandemic, while things have adapted and taken a different form, this isn't true. We lost some things, but solutions have popped up. Due to outdoor dining, in many ways the streets in my area have become more pedestrian friendly. Many blocks are actually now shut down to cars and are designated explicitly for pedestrians.

Early in the lockdown here in the UK, it certainly was the case - there was no dining anywhere for several weeks.

It's back, and pretty vibrant, in the small city I live in now. But that social contract in a small city is different anyway - even pretty near the centre I have a good sized house and some outdoor space of my own.

An $1,000 drop from $4,000/mo to $3,000/mo is a big change. The unfortunate reality, however, is $3,000 is just as unaffordable as $4,000 for many. It's still got a very long way to fall before we see $300/mo bedrooms.

My gym is 2 blocks away. Within 2 blocks I have about 10 restaurants. I also don't have to walk over syringes or navigate homeless camps. I think you're stereotyping non-urban environments.

> I also don't have to walk over syringes or navigate homeless camps.

That stereotyping goes both ways, as this is nothing like my walk to my gym.

> My gym is 2 blocks away. Within 2 blocks I have about 10 restaurants.

Does that density hold for the 30 minute walk radius from your dwelling in all directions? There's a big difference between living in the "main street" area of a suburban area and that type of environment.

Yes because I live in the suburbs, not the country. I'm talking about urbia vs non-urbia, not civilization vs the countryside.

Most suburbs don't have what you describe at all, I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive. I grew up in the suburbs myself, one with 250K people (arguably a small city), and it had nothing close to that density outside of the main street and waterfront area that accounted for maybe 10 blocks. Your claims just don't track.

I used to! The dry-cleaner shut down as did 8/10 restaurants (This is in Northern Austin). All the chains stayed open, so I guess that is something?

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