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Comment by athrowaway69 | Hacker News Reader

I had other experiences. The friendships I had in AA were superficial. Once, when I was struggling and needed help and people to talk to, I was completely ignored by the people around me. They didn't want to help the struggling - just to have this toxic positivity that nothing is wrong.

I later moved out of state. I came back to visit family, and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had relapsed after I moved and continued using until I was homeless. It was a drama fest. Absolutely ridiculous.

When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists.

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Like any random group of people, there will always be outliers.

I have had nothing but positive experiences with these groups.

I wouldn't be so quick to call him an outlier. His experience is far from uncommon. You can find plenty of people who've had the same or other problems.

sorry that you had these experiences, i can relate to aspects of them as well.

each meeting can be quite different. i had to try 10-20 of them in my city to find a few that were on my wavelength.

i don't attend aa meetings as often as i used to in early sobriety, but i still go if i have a friend that's struggling and want to open this resource to them.

at every meeting, there are things that people say that resonate and things that are cringe-worthy or even inflammatory.

part of the meditation and process is being able to be hear and react to everyone's words with equanimity.

> ... and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had relapsed after I moved and continued using until I was homeless. It was a drama fest.

I obviously don’t have your unique and nuanced understanding of the situation, but this seems like a common occurrence with all humans when they lack information.

In my experience when we don’t have information, our group tendencies lean towards filling gaps with the outlandish and dramatic.

Again, I don’t know much about AA but I’d question whether that situational behavior was driven by something unique to AA.

Though, their hostility to atheism is a problem they should have addressed long ago.

The relapsed part sure, but having a story that detailed is absurd. He stopped coming to our meeting? Must be homeless and turning tricks on corner... Absolutely ridiculous

Humans might have a tendency to gossip...but what's described sounds pretty extreme and well, toxic.

To make the broader point, just because humans tend to be assholes does not mean we should accept people being assholes as "natural" or ok.

Oh I certainly did not mean to imply it’s natural or OK...

To be more clear, this type of toxicity is seen all over the place and I think this behavior is likely caused by something that isn’t unique to any rehabilitation programs.

We see this toxic behavior in everything spanning from job workgroups to community planning committees and yes, it even manifests in extreme ways in many many communities.

I’d be the very last person to fall back on some “oh X is natural, so we should always accept X.” so if I gave this impression, huge apologies. It definitely was not my intention.

And I really don’t want to come across as if I’m stanning for AA as I’ve heard much more negative about them than positive.

> When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists.

In my experience there are two types of atheists who go to AA: those for whom religion “isn’t their thing” and those who are actively hostile to religion.

I think the latter group should find an alternative to AA.

Nice. Blaming the victim and implying I was the hostile one.

I'm respectful of others' religions. It's a private matter. I made friends, ostensibly, until they found out I was an atheist.

So fuck right off with your pseudo-righteous bullshit, okay?

Yep I agree with you.

Not right to blame you for other’s behaviours.

Doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong from what you posted.

Judging from how hostile your response is you are probably in the later category.

I’m an atheist and I’ve been going to AA meetings for years in a very religious area and I’ve had no problems at all.

If you are in the former category you are welcome and should try a different AA group.

Consider that you did suggest it was their own fault because they did something bad and you have all the reason you need for their "hostile" response. You've been fairly unpleasant about something that was obviously a big thing in their life and that yields you responses like this. Turning that around and (again) blaming them and suggesting their negative response is entirely their fault goes beyond that into the fairly toxic. That's not a healthy way to communicate with other people.

> Consider that you did suggest it was their own fault

No I didn’t. My original post was for anyone seeking help with substance abuse - that AA is a good option for atheists who are friendly to religion and a bad option for those who are hostile.

If I had wanted to put the parent into the hostile to religion group then I would have said so.

Edit: I also never said anything about being hostile to religious people which is the way the parent decided to interpret it so they could take a swing at me.

So I replied and then deleted my comment. But considering the parent’s reply I’m going to weigh in here.

I was actively hostile towards religion. In many ways I still am.

I’m still in A.A./N.A. I’m still working the steps. I’ve just got a year clean.

Absolutely nowhere in the big book does it say religion is required. In fact, it makes a purposeful effort to try to say the opposite.

That is literally the whole point of the “we agnostics” chapter.

AA/NA are not about religion. They’re about a spiritual solution to the disease of alcoholism/addiction.

Religion is not necessarily the same as spirituality. Religion is not required.

Former addict of opiates here, I've attended a lot of AA/NA meetings in the long ago past (8+ years ago).

They may not claim to be religious, but every single step mirrors the idea that you are to give up to a 'higher power' and to 'faithfully' follow the steps...etc...etc.

It's as religious as it can be while still trying to claim otherwise...in reality its a thin veneer for a truly religious/faith based system. It's got religion all up in its business...the claim to irreligiosity is a fig leaf, in my experience.

I also truly hated their angle of making you feel like you are forever a victim/failure to addiction...that is not how you promote a prosperous and good outlook on life. In fact it's a good way to make you feel like shit and use again.

What I learned later on is that yes, you can let your past be your past...no I don't want to take opiates...but I also am no longer an 'addict'. I am me, and I don't consume addictive pills anymore.

Also, as an anecdote, over 8 years clean here...and that didn't happen till I gave up on AA/NA.

Edit: After reading a few more messages, this one in particular was on point and stated things better than I can: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22553896

> It's as religious as it can be while still trying to claim otherwise...

Exactly - it is taking a program that was religious and removing the more openly religious parts in order to try and help people who aren’t religious.

You can smell religion all over it.

> that is not how you promote a prosperous and good outlook on life.

With a Christian frame of reference it fits and makes sense - and isn’t framing you as a victim.

For others it can feel very weird and even possibly harmful and build a victim mentality to think of it that way.

I'd argue its harmful when Christians teach you to feel bad for being human.

This is much the same.

I think that’s fair - and so AA probably doesn’t fit your personality as well as it does others.

If religion just "isn't your thing" I'm pretty sure that makes you an agnostic not an atheist.

However the majority of atheists in my exerience are a bit more mellow. You can fully believe there is no grand deity without being "hostile" to the belief.

As an example (that maybe is more generally relatable): I believe the world is round. I don't think I am hostile to the flat earthers. I think they are wrong based on evidence, but their ideas don't disgust me. I don't want to burn them at the stake or harass them. If they leave me alone I am content to leave them alone. So I dont think i am hostile to their beliefs. However i would never describe my relationship to the flat earth "theory" as "just not my thing".

> I don't think I am hostile to the flat earthers.

Good example - the average person is hostile to flat earthers. They would make certain negative character and intellectual judgements about them.

And they wouldn’t for example want them as a science teacher or textbook writer.

In fact the average person probably wouldn’t want to hear about flat earth theory at all!

That you would liken the religious to flat earthers is not a great sign...

Why should they find an alternate group? I thought the purpose was to address alcohol addiction. And to what group should they go?

The AA treatment has a component that many atheists may interpret as religious or spiritual. If that's your interpretation, and you are actively hostile to that belief, then your own world view is not compatible with either the treatment path or the social group you will encounter. That is not going to be a high probability scenario for recovery, and it may interfere with others' recovery, and that's why you should find another group.

Which other group? That's a different question. There doesn't have to be an alternative for AA to be a bad option. Though as it turns out, there are many options. A little searching shows there are AA for athiest groups which, presumably, use a modified protocol.

What I'm hearing is if you are hostile and rude, you should not participate (not trying to put words in your mouth). I agree.

That is sad. I'm so sorry.

> When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists.

That's unfortunate, and mostly in line with other experiences I've heard from friends, etc. AA seems like just another bullshit Christian recruitment/retention facility, that sometimes accidentally helps people who buy into it recover from addiction. Too bad.

My current sponsor’s higher power was once an imaginary vagina.

It spoke to him and everything.

Try and fit that in the Christianity column.

(not who you were replying to...)

> My current sponsor’s higher power was once an imaginary vagina. > It spoke to him and everything.

That made me laugh audibly, and next time I need to refer to a higher power in any sort of conversation, I fully plan to work that in.

If you ever have the occasion to tell your sponsor that this story inspired such a reaction from a random person on the internet, I hope it amuses him.

I shouldn't have to make up a higher power and do anything with that imaginary construct to make it through the steps of a sobriety program, though. The fact that I'd have to lie about it in the first place is the issue - it doesn't matter if other people's higher power is something non-christian or not. I cannot just be myself.

"AA seems like just another bullshit Christian recruitment/retention facility, that sometimes accidentally helps people who buy into it recover from addiction."

This is essentially false, and borderline bigotry.

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