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I had other experiences. The friendships I had in AA were superficial. Once, when I was struggling and needed help and people to talk to, I was completely ignored by the people around me. They didn't want to help the struggling - just to have this toxic positivity that nothing is wrong.

I later moved out of state. I came back to visit family, and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had relapsed after I moved and continued using until I was homeless. It was a drama fest. Absolutely ridiculous.

When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists.

That is sad. I'm so sorry.

> When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists.

That's unfortunate, and mostly in line with other experiences I've heard from friends, etc. AA seems like just another bullshit Christian recruitment/retention facility, that sometimes accidentally helps people who buy into it recover from addiction. Too bad.

"AA seems like just another bullshit Christian recruitment/retention facility, that sometimes accidentally helps people who buy into it recover from addiction."

This is essentially false, and borderline bigotry.

My current sponsor’s higher power was once an imaginary vagina.

It spoke to him and everything.

Try and fit that in the Christianity column.

(not who you were replying to...)

> My current sponsor’s higher power was once an imaginary vagina. > It spoke to him and everything.

That made me laugh audibly, and next time I need to refer to a higher power in any sort of conversation, I fully plan to work that in.

If you ever have the occasion to tell your sponsor that this story inspired such a reaction from a random person on the internet, I hope it amuses him.

I shouldn't have to make up a higher power and do anything with that imaginary construct to make it through the steps of a sobriety program, though. The fact that I'd have to lie about it in the first place is the issue - it doesn't matter if other people's higher power is something non-christian or not. I cannot just be myself.

> ... and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had relapsed after I moved and continued using until I was homeless. It was a drama fest.

I obviously don’t have your unique and nuanced understanding of the situation, but this seems like a common occurrence with all humans when they lack information.

In my experience when we don’t have information, our group tendencies lean towards filling gaps with the outlandish and dramatic.

Again, I don’t know much about AA but I’d question whether that situational behavior was driven by something unique to AA.

Though, their hostility to atheism is a problem they should have addressed long ago.

Humans might have a tendency to gossip...but what's described sounds pretty extreme and well, toxic.

To make the broader point, just because humans tend to be assholes does not mean we should accept people being assholes as "natural" or ok.

Oh I certainly did not mean to imply it’s natural or OK...

To be more clear, this type of toxicity is seen all over the place and I think this behavior is likely caused by something that isn’t unique to any rehabilitation programs.

We see this toxic behavior in everything spanning from job workgroups to community planning committees and yes, it even manifests in extreme ways in many many communities.

I’d be the very last person to fall back on some “oh X is natural, so we should always accept X.” so if I gave this impression, huge apologies. It definitely was not my intention.

And I really don’t want to come across as if I’m stanning for AA as I’ve heard much more negative about them than positive.

The relapsed part sure, but having a story that detailed is absurd. He stopped coming to our meeting? Must be homeless and turning tricks on corner... Absolutely ridiculous

Like any random group of people, there will always be outliers.

I have had nothing but positive experiences with these groups.

I wouldn't be so quick to call him an outlier. His experience is far from uncommon. You can find plenty of people who've had the same or other problems.

> When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists.

In my experience there are two types of atheists who go to AA: those for whom religion “isn’t their thing” and those who are actively hostile to religion.

I think the latter group should find an alternative to AA.

Why should they find an alternate group? I thought the purpose was to address alcohol addiction. And to what group should they go?

The AA treatment has a component that many atheists may interpret as religious or spiritual. If that's your interpretation, and you are actively hostile to that belief, then your own world view is not compatible with either the treatment path or the social group you will encounter. That is not going to be a high probability scenario for recovery, and it may interfere with others' recovery, and that's why you should find another group.

Which other group? That's a different question. There doesn't have to be an alternative for AA to be a bad option. Though as it turns out, there are many options. A little searching shows there are AA for athiest groups which, presumably, use a modified protocol.

What I'm hearing is if you are hostile and rude, you should not participate (not trying to put words in your mouth). I agree.

Nice. Blaming the victim and implying I was the hostile one.

I'm respectful of others' religions. It's a private matter. I made friends, ostensibly, until they found out I was an atheist.

So fuck right off with your pseudo-righteous bullshit, okay?

Judging from how hostile your response is you are probably in the later category.

I’m an atheist and I’ve been going to AA meetings for years in a very religious area and I’ve had no problems at all.

If you are in the former category you are welcome and should try a different AA group.

Consider that you did suggest it was their own fault because they did something bad and you have all the reason you need for their "hostile" response. You've been fairly unpleasant about something that was obviously a big thing in their life and that yields you responses like this. Turning that around and (again) blaming them and suggesting their negative response is entirely their fault goes beyond that into the fairly toxic. That's not a healthy way to communicate with other people.

> Consider that you did suggest it was their own fault

No I didn’t. My original post was for anyone seeking help with substance abuse - that AA is a good option for atheists who are friendly to religion and a bad option for those who are hostile.

If I had wanted to put the parent into the hostile to religion group then I would have said so.

Edit: I also never said anything about being hostile to religious people which is the way the parent decided to interpret it so they could take a swing at me.

Yep I agree with you.

Not right to blame you for other’s behaviours.

Doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong from what you posted.

If religion just "isn't your thing" I'm pretty sure that makes you an agnostic not an atheist.

However the majority of atheists in my exerience are a bit more mellow. You can fully believe there is no grand deity without being "hostile" to the belief.

As an example (that maybe is more generally relatable): I believe the world is round. I don't think I am hostile to the flat earthers. I think they are wrong based on evidence, but their ideas don't disgust me. I don't want to burn them at the stake or harass them. If they leave me alone I am content to leave them alone. So I dont think i am hostile to their beliefs. However i would never describe my relationship to the flat earth "theory" as "just not my thing".

> I don't think I am hostile to the flat earthers.

Good example - the average person is hostile to flat earthers. They would make certain negative character and intellectual judgements about them.

And they wouldn’t for example want them as a science teacher or textbook writer.

In fact the average person probably wouldn’t want to hear about flat earth theory at all!

That you would liken the religious to flat earthers is not a great sign...

So I replied and then deleted my comment. But considering the parent’s reply I’m going to weigh in here.

I was actively hostile towards religion. In many ways I still am.

I’m still in A.A./N.A. I’m still working the steps. I’ve just got a year clean.

Absolutely nowhere in the big book does it say religion is required. In fact, it makes a purposeful effort to try to say the opposite.

That is literally the whole point of the “we agnostics” chapter.

AA/NA are not about religion. They’re about a spiritual solution to the disease of alcoholism/addiction.

Religion is not necessarily the same as spirituality. Religion is not required.

Former addict of opiates here, I've attended a lot of AA/NA meetings in the long ago past (8+ years ago).

They may not claim to be religious, but every single step mirrors the idea that you are to give up to a 'higher power' and to 'faithfully' follow the steps...etc...etc.

It's as religious as it can be while still trying to claim otherwise...in reality its a thin veneer for a truly religious/faith based system. It's got religion all up in its business...the claim to irreligiosity is a fig leaf, in my experience.

I also truly hated their angle of making you feel like you are forever a victim/failure to addiction...that is not how you promote a prosperous and good outlook on life. In fact it's a good way to make you feel like shit and use again.

What I learned later on is that yes, you can let your past be your past...no I don't want to take opiates...but I also am no longer an 'addict'. I am me, and I don't consume addictive pills anymore.

Also, as an anecdote, over 8 years clean here...and that didn't happen till I gave up on AA/NA.

Edit: After reading a few more messages, this one in particular was on point and stated things better than I can: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22553896

> It's as religious as it can be while still trying to claim otherwise...

Exactly - it is taking a program that was religious and removing the more openly religious parts in order to try and help people who aren’t religious.

You can smell religion all over it.

> that is not how you promote a prosperous and good outlook on life.

With a Christian frame of reference it fits and makes sense - and isn’t framing you as a victim.

For others it can feel very weird and even possibly harmful and build a victim mentality to think of it that way.

I'd argue its harmful when Christians teach you to feel bad for being human.

This is much the same.

I think that’s fair - and so AA probably doesn’t fit your personality as well as it does others.

sorry that you had these experiences, i can relate to aspects of them as well.

each meeting can be quite different. i had to try 10-20 of them in my city to find a few that were on my wavelength.

i don't attend aa meetings as often as i used to in early sobriety, but i still go if i have a friend that's struggling and want to open this resource to them.

at every meeting, there are things that people say that resonate and things that are cringe-worthy or even inflammatory.

part of the meditation and process is being able to be hear and react to everyone's words with equanimity.

I always fancied the stoic concept of “higher power” basically a combination of the Universe and “reason”. This is what I turn to in any theological discussions.

It’s great you’re willing to overcome the technicalities for a greater good. Too many people are restrained by their own ego. Keep up on your righteous path.

After 15yrs of a-abuse, 4 bottles of alcover (sodium oxibate? i believe available - prescription only - only in one country) cured me. I bought 2 cases of xtra-strong beer 'just in case', have had 2 cans on my desk for months now. 0 interest in drinking.

Why in the world would you tempt yourself like that?

I obviously cant speak for the OP, but theres something to be said for putting yourself in a situation that requires discipline and resistance of temptation (though you're absolutely correct, in this case, most certainly not a good idea for everyone). Completely tangential, but I've come to think of Gandhi's celibacy tests with naked women in this way.

You see temptation, I see “a reminder”. Speaking as someone who has beaten an addiction of my own and did something similar.

4 years. Nary a single relapse to speak of.

It’s not for everyone, no. But that’s okay. Few things are.

Addiction is all about control... either it controls us or we (think) we control it. It's a perverse feedback loop.

How can you know you who is in control if you don't?

I've heard of the practice before, it seems a common, if not majority practice.

I can't speak on alcohol and think any alcohol addiction is more difficult to quit, but: I quit smoking and nicotine a year and a half ago. I still have ecigs about: I kept them in case I just couldn't. Just in case. For peace of mind. I never really saw it as temptation. I don't mind getting rid of them now, mind you, I'm just lazy and they are stored away.

Italy?

Sodium Oxybate (ie: incredibly expensive GHB) is on the market elsewhere, but not indicated for alcohol abuse and usually heavily controlled (ie: special doctors and pharmacies only).

The heavy control always surprised me while other powerful sedatives flow freely with little control.

GHB is orders of magnitude more dangerous than other sedatives, with less medical uses.

AA's 12 Steps use the word God four times. They also refer to "Him" three times, to a higher "Power," a "spiritual awakening," and prayer.

Nearly every step has a reference to spirituality of some kind and most of them are laced with Christian undertones.

More generally the idea behind the 12 steps is to place yourself in the hands of this higher power and allow it to guide you. Basically it requires a belief in prayer.

AA has worked for many many people--which is wonderful and it is demonstrably a great tool for them! But an atheist, humanist, or more generally someone who doesn't believe in spirituality is going to have to go through significant mental gymnastics to deal with the 12 Steps.

It seems to me that if someone doesn't believe in God or a higher power of any kind, there are probably better first line treatments for alcohol addiction. It isn't necessary for an atheist to change their spiritual or religious beliefs in order to recover. Therapy, medication and secular support groups all exist.

I came here to say the same (but undoubtedly not nearly as well as yourself).

It was the religious stuff that put me off completely. Being in a group of people all there with a common cause I felt was quite powerful. Hearing shared experiences from the community was helpful. I just couldn't pretend I was OK with peddling any form of faith.

https://aaagnostica.org • https://aabeyondbelief.org • https://alcoholics12steps.com • https://lifering.org/ • https://old.reddit.com/r/AtheistTwelveSteppers • https://secularaa.org • https://smartrecovery.org • https://sossobriety.org

You can take God as an euphemism for nature or more general something beyond your control. If he exists he probably wouldn't hold it against you. You don't have to deceive yourself to a degree to believe it. You probably can watch a Batman movie without believing in Batman.

I would be skeptical too and it can certainly have a negative impact on addiction groups. Although I would think these negative factors to be worse for people actually believing it. Some people classify them as a sect, but I wouldn't go that far to be honest.

But if it doesn't work for you, I think there are other groups or those that set the focus elsewhere.

I drove someone close to me to a 12 step program, and stayed with them for a session. It was a remarkably positive group of people helping each other through problems.

Thank you for sharing. Good luck on your continued journey-- wishing you all the best.

I credit naltrexone for my recovery.

Naltrexone