Comment by krick | Hacker News Reader

Comment by krick | Hacker News Reader

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Let me wonder aloud here. The story goes that Epstein was a Mossad puppet in an operation that served to control the richest, most powerful and influential, most well-connected people alive, to extent to significantly affect things on global political stage. That operation was successfully going on for decades. (That's impressive, but wouldn't really surprise me, as we know for a fact that some even more impressive success stories of several government intelligence agencies dismissed as "conspiracy stories" for decades turned out to be true.)

Then, this very valuable asset (virtually untouchable for some very high-profile people) gets compromised because some nobody accused him of "sexual abuse". There is an investigation, arrest, conviction, yet nothing really leaks, he gets off relatively easy, his masters don't think it is necessary to get rid of him and the whole (pretty public by now, with multiple very famous people low-key-affected) goes on in this messy way for 15 years.

After 15 years he suddenly gets arrested again, this time for good, the whole story gets incredibly public, his bosses suddenly (again, 15 years) realise that he is a liability and decide to get rid of him. He gets killed in a cell by Mossad agents, this is staged as a suicide, which is another "conspiracy theory" for a short while, but in the end we all know that Epstein didn't kill himself. Key evidence disappears and the case is covered on multiple levels, leading up to some very high ranks.

Ok, there are plenty of really really suspicious inconsistencies in that story already, but here's what really baffles me: how come this very well-organized, lead by world-class professionals and covered up by incredibly influential people (both on the "offending" and "blackmailed" sides) operation gets "cleaned up" in a way such that every fucking couch potato in the internet (HN included) sees that this is obviously staged? Mossad cannot silently get rid of people?

I mean, of course everybody (again, HN community members especially included) loves to think they are wa-ay smarter than some Mossad goons and dirty politicians covering this up. But seriously. How can this possibly be so obvious (yet still so mysterious! — we really know nothing in paricluar) unless somebody really wants it to be obvious?

> how come this very well-organized, lead by world-class professionals and covered up by incredibly influential people (both on the "offending" and "blackmailed" sides) operation gets "cleaned up" in a way such that every fucking couch potato in the internet (HN included) sees that this is obviously staged? Mossad cannot silently get rid of people?

It's classic spycraft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout

Didn't know there's a name for that, but that's pretty much the point of my message. A quote from the Wikipedia:

> while still managing to withhold the key and damaging facts in the case

So, what's the key? Clearly not what we are currently made to believe.

He is clearly alive and not in any trouble whatsoever.

just ask

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghislaine_Maxwell

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maxwell

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Barr

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Barr

What are we going to do about it? As individuals we feel powerless.

Epstein/handlers have dirt on the media and were able to suppress THE story. Look at the ABC hot mic incident. Who knows how many media organizations are effectively controlled.

The entrenched and ossified power structure which has taken hold at the top has to be fought and dislodged by overwhelming collective action. Also, worth noting that a President of the United States (if backed by overwhelming popular support) could crack open any part of the CIA they wanted and show the public.

The controlled media still exerts a powerful influence over perception and narrative, but it is gradually being eroded by alternative sources and information flows.

Dude this is the best summary ! I came to the comments first to get the meat of the story ! This is a Bond/Bourne novel in the making this !

But there is no silent way to dispose of someone in the public light. No matter the death cause, people are going to call it awfully convenient.

"That's impressive, but wouldn't really surprise me, as we know for a fact that some even more impressive success stories of several government intelligence agencies dismissed as "conspiracy stories" for decades turned out to be true."

I would be interested in these, any Wikipedia links?

PRISM

Not exactly sure what you mean by that one word [0], but: You would consider it a conspiracy theory saying that an agency that is funded to listen in to everything [1] is listening in to everything? And it turns out not to be a conspiracy theory when Snowden reveals that the agency funded to listen in to everything has a program to listen in to everything?

Or does the conspiracy theory have any finer details I'm not getting or is different?

Was it a conspiracy of the agency to listen in on everyone? Or is the conspiracy that the government ('people in the know') conspired to keep it (a secret agency program) secret?

[0] "PRISM is a code name for a program under which the United States National Security Agency (NSA) collects internet communications from various U.S. internet companies." Wikipedia

[1] "The NSA is responsible for global monitoring, collection, and processing of information and data for foreign and domestic intelligence and counterintelligence purposes, specializing in a discipline known as signals intelligence (SIGINT)." Wikipedia

The idea that the government was listening to everything on the internet was considered a baseless conspiracy theory before the Snowden leaks.

"internet was considered a baseless conspiracy"

I never met anyone who said it was a conspiracy theory that the intelligence agencies would listen in to everything on the internet and fullfilling their self stated purpose [0]. Even my mother thinks that is their job.

But it seems you have met people that claim the NSA doing it's job is a conspiracy theory.

What would those people say the job and purpose of the NSA is to explain it's existence?

[0] "The National Security Agency/Central Security Service (NSA/CSS) leads the U.S. Government in cryptology that encompasses both signals intelligence (SIGINT) [1] and information assurance (now referred to as cybersecurity) products and services, and enables computer network operations (CNO) in order to gain a decision advantage for the Nation and our allies under all circumstances." https://www.nsa.gov/about/mission-values/

[1] "Signals intelligence (SIGINT) is intelligence-gathering by interception of signals, whether communications between people or from electronic signals not directly used in communication" Wikipedia

It's easy to forget how things were before the Snowden revelations, since Internet privacy issues have been covered much more extensively by the media since then.

(Edited to add "Internet" above.)

> Until Snowden, the idea that Western governments would routinely collect, store, and analyze our personal data sounded like a conspiracy theory to many people.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/11/the-snowden-lega...

> The revelations were shocking: the scope and depth of the NSA’s collection of private data stopped looking like a conspiracy theory and became a cold, hard reality we all had to face.

https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/30/5224680/the-year-in-revi...

> There was a time when the idea that the U.S. government might spy on your web activity might have seemed like a far-fetched conspiracy theory.

> But that was before Edward Snowden.

https://computer.howstuffworks.com/government-see-website.ht...

"It's easy to forget how things were before the Snowden revelations, since privacy issues have been covered much more extensively by the media since then."

No it's not. I can't find any data to this narrative. There were (media) discussions on the government collecting all the data it can in the 70s, and they come up with every census.

There have been huge discussions around ECHOLON. There have been huge discussions about COINTELPRO.

Shocking to whom? I never met anyone who was shocked. Did you? Were YOU shocked by the fact that the NSA was listening in on the internet? Was your mom shocked that the government listened in on the internet? Who are those "many people"? Is there a poll or any substantial data? I really would like to hear from someone who thinks that it was a conspiracy theory that the NSA was listening in on the internet and then was shocked by the Snowden revelations.

I've read all three articles and none has any data or facts about the "many people" or any sources. What are many people? Where does this come from?

The parent comment claims:

"considered a baseless conspiracy theory before the Snowden leaks."

Considered by whom?

EDIT: Ok, thanks telling me you were shocked that the NSA was listening in on the internet. I would not have thought that someone on HN was shocked, especially after ECHOLON - I stand corrected.

The key words in here are "scope and depth". Before Snowden, the idea that the American government would collect the communications of hundreds of millions of people who are not under investigation en masse was considered a conspiracy theory by the average American Internet user. I'm not aware of any studies done on this topic, but it's a common sense observation.

Yes, I was shocked by the PRISM disclosures in 2013. Feel free to contact the authors of these articles if you want to argue with them, since they agree.

Edit: You apparently disliked my replies enough to downvote all of my recent comments on other threads.

I've upvoted your replies, because I stand corrected as I've said.

My comments though have tanked Karma.

I was shocked. Most of my tech savvy and industry friends were shocked. My parents were shocked. It was BLANKET metadata collection (and probably more). A Google engineer who eventually encrypted traffic between their internal data centers was shocked: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131106/00235225143/pisse...

I know people were "absolutely sure" before PRISM leaked, but it was a revelation to many.

As I've said I stand corrected. I just could not imagine people being shocked after PHOENIX [0], COINTELPRO [1] and ECHOLON [2], but even tech savvy people were shocked as you say.

[0] US government knows no limits [1] US government does domestic espionage [2] US governemnt listens in on everything

the only reason why MK Ultra was discovered was through a cache of just under 100k files that were supposed to be destroyed but ended up being found on accident. This forced the CIA to shut it down after it being unknown to the public for over 30 years. aka we don't really know how far back it goes and most likely will never understand the entirety of its reach. The Water gate scandal had everyone in the CIA destroying everything under strict rules if my memory serves correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

Where would the conspiracy therory on MK Ultra be? That the CIA has a research programm using drugs and psychology to find a truth serum against spies of the Soviet Union? And people said this is a conspiracy theory and then the Church commission proofed it not to be one?

How would the Phoenix Program also be a conspiracy theory?

Where is the difference between a secret government agency program and a conspiracy?

Maybe it's worth taking a moment to recall the glaring inconsistencies in the 9/11 story beat into our heads, then used as justification to engage in perpetual war (against an idea) and transform the world into a state of 24/7 total surveillance.

Sergei Skripal would love to have a word with you about doing things in the open. You could also ask Alexander Litvinenko, if he wasnt dead. Its not being sloppy, its showing others the size of your dong.

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