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Comment by aantix | Hacker News Reader

To further complicate the matter, the idea of a "bad" environment is relative.

I've been on many all-male programming teams. Played football in high school.

From my experiences, those men tend to make fun of, poke, prod, and occasionally fight their way to agreement.

Comments were very direct. Abrasive at times. But usually got straight to the point.

I don't think I ever thought of any of it as needing "fixing". Quite the contrary, I think those men loved those other men.

But I could see someone of a different disposition being shocked at the crudeness, the brashness of it all and possibly thinking "it's toxic". It could be conflicting if someone wanted to participate in the team activity, but their approach didn't align with the existing members.

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> To further complicate the matter, the idea of a "bad" environment is relative.

I see no relativism here.

As a description of your past experiences it was ostensibly a productive, functioning environment where every single member of every single group was comfortable communicating in that style.

As a general prescription for the most productive behavior for groups it's a poor model. As you point out, adding a single member with a different disposition can quickly turn the thing into a toxic environment.

Also, that model suffers from the same issue FLOSS projects do-- namely, it's hard to get any numbers at all on how many people never join up because the communication style isn't welcoming to outsiders.

Anyhow, if you posted this on Twitter I'm sure your description would quickly become transformed into an ostensible prescription by its algorithm as it got distributed for maximum outrage. But that's a problem with anti-human digital platforms, not a sign of ambiguity in what constitutes a productive work environment.

Edit: clarification

>and occasionally fight their way to agreement.

If you literally mean 'fight', then that's just a bad work environment.

I’ve seen fist fights on sports teams when I was younger or blow out arguments in my marriage finally clear the air where a hundred previous logical, empathetic discussions only let the feelings fester.

There is something liberating about finally embracing the anger, rage and resentment that you feel and just letting it all out. Unfiltered.

And strangely, as I get older, I take it less personally if I’m on the receiving end. Sometimes people are overwhelmed and tired of doing mental gymnastics to keep things “nice”. I sorta get that now.

Are you saying that fist fights in the office are ok, then? Or you mean something else?

I’ve never seen a fist fight in an office. Probably not a good idea from a legal or liability standpoint.

But if two consenting adults want to physically fight in a controlled, fair environment, zero problems with that. And I could see how it could be therapeutic to release the resentment towards the other.

Maybe an office boxing league?

Having technical decisions made on the basis of who can punch the hardest doesn't seem sensible. But I don't think you are being serious at this point.

You're forgetting the first and second rule...

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