Comment by whack | Hacker News Reader

Comment by whack | Hacker News Reader

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> this pervasive opinion that women are leaving STEM fields because of toxic behavior feels more sexist to me than anything else

I don't think it is sexist at all to claim that some people would not want to be in a field because of its hostile work environment. I sure wouldn't. Factually debatable? Sure. But sexist?

> It might sound harsh, but I don't feel terribly concerned about keeping these displaced women in STEM; if their interest isn't strong enough to overcome a bad environment, then maybe they just weren't that interested to begin with

I'm not a woman, but I am a person of color. And if anyone expressed those exact sentiments about people of color, I would never want to be around that person again. "I don't feel terribly concerned about keeping displaced minorities in my field. If they aren't interested enough to put up with racism, they shouldn't be here to begin with. It is their own responsibility to do something about it and fix the racist environment that they are in". Can you even imagine someone saying that? And yet, I hear the same sentiments being directed towards women constantly.

Ironically enough, you and I probably agree on most things. I don't think the STEM field is "toxic" or any worse than any other profession. At most companies I've worked, both management and other engineers made great efforts to be welcoming and friendly to women. That said, misogyny and hostile work environments do exist, and when it happens, we need to make sure we blame the culprits and not the victims.

To further complicate the matter, the idea of a "bad" environment is relative.

I've been on many all-male programming teams. Played football in high school.

From my experiences, those men tend to make fun of, poke, prod, and occasionally fight their way to agreement.

Comments were very direct. Abrasive at times. But usually got straight to the point.

I don't think I ever thought of any of it as needing "fixing". Quite the contrary, I think those men loved those other men.

But I could see someone of a different disposition being shocked at the crudeness, the brashness of it all and possibly thinking "it's toxic". It could be conflicting if someone wanted to participate in the team activity, but their approach didn't align with the existing members.

> To further complicate the matter, the idea of a "bad" environment is relative.

I see no relativism here.

As a description of your past experiences it was ostensibly a productive, functioning environment where every single member of every single group was comfortable communicating in that style.

As a general prescription for the most productive behavior for groups it's a poor model. As you point out, adding a single member with a different disposition can quickly turn the thing into a toxic environment.

Also, that model suffers from the same issue FLOSS projects do-- namely, it's hard to get any numbers at all on how many people never join up because the communication style isn't welcoming to outsiders.

Anyhow, if you posted this on Twitter I'm sure your description would quickly become transformed into an ostensible prescription by its algorithm as it got distributed for maximum outrage. But that's a problem with anti-human digital platforms, not a sign of ambiguity in what constitutes a productive work environment.

Edit: clarification

>and occasionally fight their way to agreement.

If you literally mean 'fight', then that's just a bad work environment.

I’ve seen fist fights on sports teams when I was younger or blow out arguments in my marriage finally clear the air where a hundred previous logical, empathetic discussions only let the feelings fester.

There is something liberating about finally embracing the anger, rage and resentment that you feel and just letting it all out. Unfiltered.

And strangely, as I get older, I take it less personally if I’m on the receiving end. Sometimes people are overwhelmed and tired of doing mental gymnastics to keep things “nice”. I sorta get that now.

Are you saying that fist fights in the office are ok, then? Or you mean something else?

I’ve never seen a fist fight in an office. Probably not a good idea from a legal or liability standpoint.

But if two consenting adults want to physically fight in a controlled, fair environment, zero problems with that. And I could see how it could be therapeutic to release the resentment towards the other.

Maybe an office boxing league?

Having technical decisions made on the basis of who can punch the hardest doesn't seem sensible. But I don't think you are being serious at this point.

You're forgetting the first and second rule...

> If they aren't interested enough to put up with racism, they shouldn't be here to begin with

I did not say "put up with", I said "deal with", which includes many options other than accepting what you're given. If your workplace discriminates on the basis of race, you could report them for violation of anti-discrimination laws, lobby for stronger laws, leave the workplace for a better one, etc.

> It is their own responsibility to do something about it and fix the racist environment that they are in

Exactly what I just discussed, maybe in an ideal world such things shouldn't be your responsibility, but the only way to guarantee action is to take it. If someone pushes you into a puddle, you might be right to say that it shouldn't be your responsibility to remove yourself from that situation, as you did not put yourself into it, but I think most would agree that the right course of action is to deal with it yourself anyways.

I am not suggesting that the responsibility falls solely on women or minorities to deal with their own problems at all, but I am suggesting that they should take some agency of their own.

>I am not suggesting that the responsibility falls solely on women or minorities to deal with their own problems at all, but I am suggesting that they should take some agency of their own.

Great idea! Perhaps following your comment, women and minority groups will start to organize to protest against unfair and illegal treatment.

Do you have thoughts on whether or not the current discourse is socializing certain group identities to prematurely internalize a victim mindset?

My niece expressed an interest in taking CS, and two of the women present immediately launched into third-hand accounts of how toxic and sexist they have heard that the industry is. It pisses me off a bit that they are convincing an otherwise neutral and open mind that they are both unwelcome and that they’re already a victim in the making. If the goal is truly to get more women in the field, I think the twitter mobs and one-sided viral medium.com posts are doing way more to scare them away than anything else.

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