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Comment by shadykiller | Hacker News Reader

How about using MDMA for couples therapy ?

There are downsides to MDMA. Been through the advertised open and connected experience with a group of decade old friends, came out the other side feeling depressed that you can buy love in a pill and that my normal self would not get to those conversations normally. It feels inauthentic to observe people I have known for decades behave very differently to how I know them and would probably not have accessed that experience without a pill. Buying love in a pill robs the story of what it took to get to love normally. It stops being real, and starts being a side effect of a drug.

Your problem, then, is believing that the pill contains something you can never generate without it.

This is a false belief.

You absolutely can, and should, make the conscious decision to be more like X in your everyday life, where X is how you behave under the influence of MDMA.

I had the same problem, and got a horrible down when the drug wore off, UNTIL I realized that what the pill actually does, is SHOW ME WHAT I'M CAPABLE OF FEELING. The very INSTANT I believed it was possible, all bad feels disappeared and I was left with an afterglow that lasted for weeks.

It's not a downside of MDMA, quite the opposite; a reflection of your own weakness, the knowledge of which helps you fix it!

The 'X' I was under with MDMA was a feeling I can reach when I'm in a loving relationship and have had my needs met. I don't need a pill to get there, but knowing all the meaning and work I put into getting to a relaxed and contented atmosphere can be bought for a few dollars a pill fundamentally changes what those feelings are worth and mean for the worse.

The feeling of bliss should come from a successful relationship with others, not some drug.

> There are downsides to MDMA.

According to here[0], you are quite correct:

Amphetamines are a class of psychostimulant drugs that are widely abused for their stimulant, euphoric, empathogenic and hallucinogenic properties. Many of these effects result from acute increases in dopamine and serotonin neurotransmission. Subsequent to these acute effects, methamphetamine and 3,4 methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) produce persistent damage to dopamine and serotonin nerve terminals. This review summarizes the numerous interdependent mechanisms including excitotoxicity, mitochondrial damage and oxidative stress that have been demonstrated to contribute to this damage. Emerging non-neuronal mechanisms by which the drugs may contribute to monoaminergic terminal damage, as well as the neuropsychiatric consequences of this terminal damage are also presented. Methamphetamine and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) have similar chemical structures and pharmacologic properties compared to other abused substances including cathinone (khat), as well as a relatively new class of novel synthetic amphetamines known as ‘bath salts’ that have gained popularity amongst drug abusers.

0 - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3870191/

That was totally out of the left field. Is this a random joke or do you have any interesting links to share?

Not the OP, but he’s not joking — it’s an area with an increasing amount of interest and research, although obviously tremendously hampered by the legal issues. I don’t have any links, but you can find plenty on google.

There are also studies using it to treat PTSD in veterans.

Which is ironic, because that was the original use of MDMA to begin with. It started as a therapeutic drug.

MDMA was originally used as a couples therapy drug in the early 20th century. It is a heart opening medicine that gently removes your ego. It is very powerful and beautiful. All about set and setting.

Pedantry -- mid-to-late 20th century. It wasn't tested in humans until the 70's.

I don't have links (sorry) but a few prominent people in the psychedelics-for-therapy crowd often share anecdotes about these drugs helping people to shed ego, communicate better, and generally build bonds better. There are real accounts of this, but many if not all are anecdotal due to how limited data is and how informal data capture is.

A great place to look is Tim Ferriss' podcast episodes about psychedelic therapy. He has two I can think of, and one has a few great anecdotes. From him you'll find many others. Gabor Maté is a good one to check out. He uses psychedelics extensively in therapy and has for quite some time.

One woman I listened to (I believe on Tim's podcast) detailed how her and her husband would take MDMA (I believe) every year or so and talk things out. Whether things were good or bad. She describes herself as the last kind of person you'd expect to see taking illegal drugs, but here she is, and she believes it has made her marriage far better than it would have been without them.

There are countless similar stories.

http://www.maps.org is a leading organisation in the use of MDMA to treat PTSD and other forms of trauma.

Great idea but come Tuesday evening you'll have a couple who hate themselves as well as each other, who can't remember a word of that deep-and-meaningful they had at the weekend.

Have you ever taken MDMA? I've personally found that the bonds it builds between people last long after the experience is over, and I know a couple who anecdotally feel like doing MDMA together has improved their relationship. It has risks, including anxiety attacks afterwards if you take too much, but the one person I know who had a couple months of anxiety attacks from taking MDMA (shortly after taking the analog MDA) still felt like the positive interpersonal effects were lasting and unaffected by the later anxiety attacks.

So there's one couple you know and another person who had 8 weeks (?) of anxiety attacks who swear by it ?

Hope it was the other commenter who down voted me.

Most of the comments I respond to I don't vote on, and most of the comments I vote on I don't respond to. I think it's generally a bad practice to assume that people who reply to your comments down voted you, but in this case I actually did. I did so because I believe you're spreading a misconception about the effects and aftermath of a drug that I'm pretty sure you're unfamiliar with and not well read on. Human experiences vary, and I would be open to the idea that somebody could come away from dropping MDMA without noticing lasting interpersonal bonds, but when I read a hypothetical description of a drug being used that doesn't match any of the accounts I've experienced, heard, or read, I'm skeptical that the source knows what they're taking about. This discussion seems like an inadvertent distraction from a serious suggestion.

The hangover of depression, agitation, and anhedonia is real, but it just lasts a day. The conversations, connections, and epiphanies you may have had last much much longer.

But is it the drug or the shared experience itself?

It's pent up emotions and feelings which flow freely after the drug has removed any blocks. That's the therapeutic part.

> In follow-up psychotherapy, patients process emotions and insights brought up during the MDMA session. The current protocol calls for patients to take MDMA two or three times, each a month apart, interspersed with psychotherapy.

> “The MDMA alone or the therapy alone don’t appear to be as effective,” Dr. Mithoefer said. “The MDMA seems to act as a catalyst that allows the healing to happen.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/us/ecstasy-molly-ptsd-mdm...

MDMA and LSD affects your perception and brain chemical reactions just like food or cigarettes. The pleasure or sluggish of eating food is real or just chemical reactions?

Does it really matter if it's the drug directly or the shared experience it makes possible indirectly? (I don't which it is)

Take a reasonable dose (~100mg), avoid physical activity, and take a proper supplement stack [0] and you will find no hangover but actually a mild afterglow.

[0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/15m9sf/mdma_supp...

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