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Comment by xattt | Hacker News Reader

I sardonically worry that they will offer a touch screen keyboard instead.

The Lenovo Yoga Book is a hinged tablet. Bottom half is a glass surface with both capacitive touch and Wacom digitiser. It comes with a Wacom pen, which has a swappable ballpoint pen nib so you can draw on paper and have it digitised. There's a backlit silkscreen-type stencil that shines through a (permanent) keyboard layout. And touchpad. So, it's touch-screen typing on a fixed keyboard layout. And you can swap between pen-digitiser and keyboard mode. A crazy set of features. I was very excited to buy it.

They keyboard is very hard to use. The pen is laggy and there's no really useful Android software. I use it exclusively for watching videos. Go figure.

Still, I'm glad they tried it. There's too much device monoculture IMHO.

https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/android-tablets/yoga-ta...

Most products hit a point where the design space has been explored and there are only a few reasonable options. Outside of the recent touchbar and keyboard missteps apple picked up on the notion that people want laptops that are thin, and light with low bezel screens and big touchpads, a battery that works for the whole day and performance sufficient for huge numbers of tabs.

They've run with that design philosophy for a long time which has made their laptops hard to replace. I've been looking for a Linux laptop with similar specs to an mbp but it simply doesn't exist.

> I've been looking for a Linux laptop with similar specs to an mbp but it simply doesn't exist.

I don't believe you've been thorough enough in your search.

Great Linux laptops are often deceivingly marketed as Windows laptops, and you should expect the pricing to be similar to the MacBook.

The two closest options I've seen are the razer 13 and xps 13 but both aren't quite as thin or light as the mbp, or they have smaller trackpads etc.

Did you have something in mind?

What's the battery life like on Linux laptops these days?

The bit about the swappable pen tip picked my interest, cool feature! As an avid believer that pen input is the most flexible way to express your thought process, I find it a bit of a lost art though, people born in the new millennium just wont spend the time to learn to write cursive. I went through most of the Note generation from Samsung and the SPen is getting really close to the look and feel of writing on paper. There's a Google hand writing keyboard for Android that is really good, in fact I am writing this using it. Still, it looks like it will continue to be a niche functionality at best.

About 15 years ago during my studies I dreamt of a tablet device with pen input and hand writing recognition for advanced maths. I was writing a lot during my physics lectures but almost no plain text. I would still like to have such a device, but also with a CAS integrated with the handwriting recognition. This would take the pain out of typing stuff into a CAS using obscure syntax.

IMO iPad Pro with the appropriate software would be perfect. However, I think handwriting recognition for math might be too much a niche for developer to focus and polish into software that’s a pleasure to use.

And recognizing math is hard. That is a huge set of symbols (sometimes with semantically meaningful "tiny" variations like doubled up vertical lines on an R) and their size and relative positioning carries a lot of meaning. Handwriting is a walk in the park compared to that.

As someone with bad writing, I have very fond memories of the Graffiti input system from Palm. I can still remember the alphabet 20 years (it was painful writing that!) later.

That might be just an us thing. Haven't met anyone in europe who didn't know cursive

I can write cursive but I can’t read my own handwriting - so now I print.

Upon clicking that link: annoying survey popup, long loading times, chat with a Lenovo specialist modal on the side, not a great color scheme, buggy scrolling.

Just a bad experience from Lenovo overall.

It baffles me that anyone would even attempt this, considering that a very similar technology -- not touchscreen keyboard, but with roughly similar properties -- has been tried in the 1980s, repeatedly, and has been, well, pretty much a failure for general-purpose computing.

(Edit: for confused readers, what we used to call a "membrane keyboard" looked like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Magnavox... . I.e. literally a membrane, with key outlines printed and nothing else. You'd press on the outlines which would go down, traveling no more than a few mm, a distance that was barely perceivable).

The ZX81 (Timex Sinclair 1000 in the US), the Magnavox Odissey, all had membrane keyboards and they were absolutely miserable. They weren't laggy or anything, it's just that the nearly complete absence of tactile feedback made them extremely annoying to use for any kind of productive purpose. They were beyond terrible and I can't imagine why anyone would want to go back to almost that. I say "almost" because membrane keyboards actually had a modicum of tactile feedback, and some manufacturers did eventually give in and produce membrane keyboards with some sort of tactile hints (e.g. embossed letter outlines). Touchscreens are even worse than that.

Membrane keyboards were ok (and still are) for things like limited consumer electronics controls and 16-key industrial touchpads (they're basically immune to liquids and dust). But they turned out to be useless for typing more than 20-30 characters at a time and they were abandoned save for a few niches.

But it's cheap. Had it been priced at 1500 USD, and had Windows 10 instead of Android - well, at very least the pen wouldn't be so laggy, and there would be software. And then, perhaps, there would be something akin to haptic feedback for the keyboard.

My point is: if Apple would ever attempt to do something like this the user experience would probably be out of the ballpark. And if it couldn't hit it - they wouldn't sell it. See also: foldable phone craze. Counterpoint: I hate the Touch Bar.

The machine is cool though. I have one and use it just for testing purposes. So the strange keyboard is a feature for me. The thing is that the on-screen keyboard is far more preferable than the expensive Wacom stand.

I don't think it is bad as a spare power brick, plus the sound on it is pretty good. For pose value the TRON style keyboard works every time.

I'm amazed by my iPhone 8 home button. It's not a real button, it's just an imitation, but its feedback is so real. I don't know whether it would be possible, but I think that it's a possibility: to imitate an entire keyboard with just flat touch panel. That would solve all problems with those movement parts that always failing and there would be no holes for dust at all!

Taptic Engine is a very good click emulator. The touchpad of newer MacBooks and tactile feedbacks of newer iPhones are just amazing.

On the other side, nothing can emulate a good (even membrane) keyboard, because typing's most important sensory feedback is not touch or sound, but finger travel.

I'm a programmer and use a variety of keyboards. I have an 2014 MacBook Pro, a lowish end membrane keyboard at office and a Logitech G710+ with CherryMX Brown switches.

The winner is Cherry MX, hands down, but MacBook has a very nice tactile travel feel, so I can write way faster for a membrane keyboard.

The promise of butterfly keyboard was sharp tactile feed to enable faster writing speeds, but it proved to be too fragile as far as I can see. I've never used one for a long time, so I cannot comment on it with any authority.

It's pretty hard to go back to membrane or scissor switches when one has gotten used to a mechanical keyboard.

When I bough the small Magic Keyboard 2 for use with my midi controller(I needed a bluetooth keyboard), it took me weeks to adjust. It felt like banging on a flat table for a while.

The Anne Pro 2 is mechanical and has bluetooth, maybe an alternative for you?

I have the original Anne Pro actually :)

The problem is that I badly need a separate escape key(Vim user) and function keys. Switching the keyboard layout is just too much of a hassle.

The Vortex Tab 75 will fit my needs. Shame that it wasn't release months ago.

I'll never understand the infatuation with mechanical kb's. I am old enough to be trained on them, but the low-travel scissor types are so much nicer to type and don't give you RSI.

A low travel scissor keyboard, Apple keyboards or a high quality membrane keyboard like Microsoft Ergonomic series are very nice and comfortable keyboards in my opinion too. However today's mechanical keyboards are a bit different when compared to older ones.

First of all, the new switches are way too lighter than an old buckling spring or Cherry Blue equivalents. Also the ones I use (Cherry MX Brown) are way lighter than any moderately worn membrane keyboard.

The new keys are also more silent when compared to older buckling ones. If you want noise, you can use Cherry MX Blue. If you want absolute silence with no feedback whatsoever, you can use Cherry MX RED (and its friends). I personally prefer Cherry MX Brown, which is a good compromise between noise and feedback. My office friends are using Sun's old mechanical keyboards, and it doesn't bother any of us noise-wise.

Also, the mechanical keyboards give a much consistent feedback and their key weight doesn't change with age. I've used a Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 for ~10 years and its weight changes over the years.

Last but not least, nearly all of them are backlit. This is a huge plus for me.

I'm not after customization or anything in my devices (which is hugely useful for some), but its comfort benefits and consistency both reduced the fatigue and increased my writing speed and accuracy at the same time.

They're infinitely more customizable, by not being (as) mass-produced, for one. I prefer keyswitches that have a lower weight and more travel than membrane switches, but if you legitimately prefer low-travel switches, those certainly exist in the mechanical realm too.

The RSI point is significantly more controversial. Practically any type of laptop keyboard or non-split desktop keyboard puts your arms and wrists at unnatural angles and encourages poor posture. I'm not going to argue that my non-split mechanical keyboard is any better for my health than a membrane keyboard, but mechanical keyboards give you enough customization that you can choose between hundreds of split designs or build your own to suit your specific tastes.

Besides, I've noticed that mechanical keyboard users rarely use the entire length of their switch travel; the entire point of tactile or clicky switches is to be able to actuate them without bottoming out. Typing on a MacBook keyboard (even the nicer scissor-switch kinds) feels almost like typing on a glass screen because you're forced to have each keystroke bottom out on the hard surface underneath.

I'll just throw in one more anecdote, but I've never felt any pain whatsoever and used laptop keyboards my whole life (30 now), whereas whenever I've tried mechanical, and I've tried at least 5 now, I always revert within a few days due to discomfort/soreness. Even with a large wrist rest your hands are doing so much more work moving around.

I just don't find the idea that split keyboards are more "natural" to be true either. I've never felt a lack of comfort with the standard setup. Are there any well-done studies published on this?

Funnily enough, I've used Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 for a decade, and its split design forced me to learn touch typing because I've always tried to cross that gap and landed in the split.

Also after getting used to it, it was one of the most reliable and comfortable keyboards that I've ever used. However, I've eventually wore it down and its keys started to get heavier. So, I moved to G710+, and I'm very happy now.

I'm surprised you say this. I was having issues with wrist pain at work from typing so bought myself a keyboard with cherry mx browns - has done wonders for me.

Same here. It's an unpopular opinion because you lose nerd cred but I remember the din of a cube farm full of people banging away on mechanical keyboards, and I have no desire to repeat the experience in an open plan office. I'm glad the things are expensive.

I my eye nobody uses nerd cred for not liking mechanical keyboards. Its noise footprint is bigger than a good membrane keyboard in most circumstances, but it provides other benefits. It's a matter of trade-off. If one size have fit to all of us, we were be still using buckling spring keyboards. :)

Although I agree with you I wonder if it’s just an artifact of how we were trained to type. When I see kids type on glass they don’t seem to require this tactile feedback. In 5-10 years, basically when today’s 10 year olds are of working age, I wonder what we will see.

But I do understand we need good keyboards today.

Here is a small study that looked at it in kids: http://www.bradycline.com/2013/03/ipad-typing/

When I'm looking to the keyboard of my phone or tablet, I also don't need feedback, however while writing on a desktop PC or workstation and writing code full speed, physical keyboard gives my brain hints for alignment and takes another concentration task from my consciousness.

Another effect is the screen size. You can see the keyboard and text area in your vision on a phone or tablet, but it's not possible in a desktop or laptop.

Looks like it boils down to the information that we can gather about our fingers and hitting targets with the vision and other senses during writing.

Funny thing is, I can write faster while I'm listening to music and cannot hear the keys' sounds.

Definitely. It’s interesting how personal it all is. I guess I’m just theorizing how long until we are the modern equivalent of a writer who can only write with a typewriter.

When I was a kid writers would discuss typewriters very similar to how we discuss keyboards. I haven't seen a typewriter in years. ;)

I like the flat style of Apple scissor keyboards, but I won’t discount what could be done with a touch surface “keyboard”. Why worry about emulating the feel of a mechanical keyboard? I love swipe keyboards on phones; removing physical keys makes that frictionless on computer keyboards. (Though predictive text may not be as fun for terminal flags.) And there are probably other gains to be made if you can unlearn what you learned from Mavis Beacon.

For that matter, why emulate a mechanical keyboard at all? If we unlearn the whole ”static” key concepts maybe there is even more to gain. Probably too late for me though. ;)

Sorry, but you have to specify which color of Cherry MX.

I've already specified that I'm using Cherry MX Brown in my Comment. No?

They have put in a patent for exactly this https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/04/apple-exploring-new-gla...

But imagine trying to use it without looking if it was completely flat. Keys without edges won't work well unless you're looking like on a mobile. There is tech for a display that can render relief.

Well, you can put some borders between buttons. I'm not suggesting on fully reconfigurable keyboard, while that would be interesting, I don't think that it's strictly needed. Physical keyboard layouts are static and that's OK. But the ability to display different labels on buttons might be handly. For example every Russian uses two layouts: English and Russian layout. Russian keyboards have both letters printed, usually with different colour. Now displaying correct letter on each key when user switches layouts, would be an improvement over current situation.

I'm still not used to the missing gaps between function keys on my newer Windows laptop. That and the up and down arrow keys squished to fit between the right and left arrows.

It's like the people who design these never used arrow or function keys. Did they think the gaps and positioning were arbitrary and useless?

What's wrong with just going back to plain-old keyboards that work? Why do we need this 'innovation' in the keyboard space?

'My keyboard broke' has never been a problem. I used the same laptop for just shy of 12 years. No keyboard problems. I'm typing on a 10+ year old keyboard right now. The only 'problem' is that some of the letters are partially worn away. Why not just use what works instead of inventing something new, probably more expensive, with new and different failure modes?

It's almost always better to strive for what's better.

Innovation can lead to more accessibility, time savings, etc.

It’s hard for me to see how a touchscreen keyboard is better or in what ways it increases accessibility or time savings.

Let's start with the zero moving parts and completely impervious to liquid spills or crumbs. Obviously it has to be, first and foremost, a great keyboard. To be determined whether it's possible to achieve, but it's certainly a worthwhile goal.

The trackpad on macbook pros work the same. There's a big issue there though: on a keyboard you want and expect travel at the physical level, that travel is a significant part of the feedback. One of the issues in the butterfly is many people hurt after typing for some time, the lack of resistance before smashing into the hard stop is a source of physical trauma.

> One of the issues in the butterfly is many people hurt after typing for some time

Is there a source for this?

I've got to say I'm surprised that anyone would really be fooled by the 8 home button. The haptic feedback is nice, but it still doesn't feel "real", at least not to me.

Apple got their multitouch capacitive screen technology from a company called FingerWorks that used to produce keyboards. The keyboards were apparently popular with some people with RSI.

After the sale to Apple, they stopped producing keyboards and prices for anything that remained skyrocketed to $1500.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=3940.0

Maybe that’s an idea, simply get 2 iPad Minis and display keys on them for a full keyboard. You could angle them and redraw the keys however you want. If you really need tactile feedback, just place the keys on top. No need to wire them up.

The key feel would only be slightly worse than the current offering.

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