Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook
9to5mac.com
9to5mac.com
I've just bought one after holding out for 6 years since my last MBP. Everyone's wishes will be granted imminently.
I've had the keyboard replaced once already for exactly the same problem, but I'm a contractor and Apple can take weeks to repair the keyboard so I'm probably going to be stuck working like this for a while longer - at least until I take holiday.
It's far from acceptable for a $2,000 [pro]fessional machine.
Overall, the 2015's are reliable machines with only the relatively minor annoyances of the battery recall and the "staingate" anti-glare coating issue.
Really hoping Apple returns to the ethos of their older designs, with serviceability and modularity higher on the list of design goals.
Same here (well, I have the "cheap" one without the Touch Bar). Everything has been replaced at least once (on Apple Care, fortunately) except the bottom plate.
> The only reason I got it is because the MacBook Air it replaced was dying
Same here. That MBA was a fine machine.
Say what you want about Apple and price, but I've had PCs since 1994 and the two Macs I've had have (usefully) outlasted every other machine by quite some margin - this one in particular. 6 years without formatting a Windows machine (I can't talk for now, but especially back then) would be crazy.
You might want to consider running Manjaro[0] or Haiku[1] instead (I've had great luck with both on older MacBooks [2,3]).
Nessus reports El Capitan as a "Critical" vulnerability due to lack of security updates:
According to its self-reported version number, the Unix operating system running on the remote host is no longer supported.
Lack of support implies that no new security patches for the product will be released by the vendor. As a result, it is likely to contain security vulnerabilities.
...
Mac OS X 10.11.6 (intel) support ended.
Upgrade to Mac OS X 10.14 / 10.13 / 10.12.
[2] https://tinyapps.org/blog/201811010700_linux_for_2009_macboo...
It's not super easy to replace, but if you're comfortable with a screw driver, it shouldn't pose much of a challenge, and the instruction from ifixit are great.
I'm still holding tight to my 2012 MBP, but it's got a replacement battery, and a roomier SSD to breathe some new life into it.
I'm currently weighing up the option of installing Linux onto it as I'm more inclined to move away from the Apple ecosystem, but I have reservations on what that will do the battery life :/
I still own a MBA from 2011 in its original state (0 repair).
If you do some googling you will see there are two versions, and depending on the size/shape of SSD you are buying it may be better to buy one rather than the other.
If you do more googling, people have tried various drives and report on performance/compatibility etc but generally compatibility is good except with some samsung drives.
I dropped a full bottle of gin on it last week. The bottle literally broke over my open backpack with the mbp there. It seemed like I threw it on the distillery.
After letting it fully dry, isssues are:
- Couple small spots on the monitor. I think water got inside between the glass and display. They were very big (20% of the screen) and been reducing and now just 2 small spots (maybe 2-3%). These don't seem to reduce anymore but I will try to see if applying some subtle heat over will make them disappear. - At first a couple keys didn't work, but now just the P and S seem to sometimes not register a tap, but when I press again, I get two of them. Not exactly sure what is going on or if it will go away. I would say it happens once every 20 or so taps (funny, writing happens there caused it on both the s and the p :))
Apart from that, all seems to be working fine. I can't say if it will continue, but I was sure it would be 'trash' after I saw what happen. Super happy it is working
I would caution Apple against placing too much weight on any particular opinion. Pleasing the curmudgeonly neckbeards might mean that you piss off the creatives, or vice versa.
The problem with touchbar is it’s hard to use without looking at it - like most professionals do because it’s just muscle memory.
Give me a real escape and I won’t mind the rest being a touch Bar.
But I hope they make it like gaming keyboards that have real keys with tiny lcd displays on so you can customise the function but still have a real key to press.
Here's the modification I use: https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/complex_modifications/#caps_l...
"Change caps_lock to control if pressed with other keys, to escape if pressed alone."
No thank you.
I’m afraid of mapping the caps lock to escape as a holdover from flash games where escape quit your game and so I fear destructive actions if I accidentally press escape instead of the “a” key, whereas if I accidentally press control nothing happens.
It very much is a small set of people who complain loudly about the touchbar, and many of whom have not even used it that just think they won’t like it.
To me it adds zero value so whatever it adds to the cost of the product is an extra I don't want to pay.
I think if Apple had given the option to get their MBPs without the TB I doubt very few people would have bought it.
Something really stupid (related to TouchBar design) happened to me about 2 weeks ago.
I watched a movie using an external TV, and I set the laptop screen brightness to zero. The movie ended, so I shut down the machine using the TV as a monitor.
Next day, when I turned on the laptop (without the TV). Zero! No sound, nothing, only the artificial "ESC" key in the TouchBar. My first reaction... "ohh the brightness", it happened before with older MBP models.
But... Where are my brightness keys!? For some reason, there were not displayed. (after a little bit of search in support forums, I found that some users were not seeing TouchBar keys during login too).
I connected the TV again... nothing. I tried to login... but since I couldn't see the login screen, I ended in the password recovery mode. In total desperation (that included trying to reboot in recovery or to do a SMC reset without any visual and auditive feedback), I found by chance that the screen displayed the right brightness if I open/close the lid.
When I saw the password reset mode screen, I was happy. But if I restarted the brightness remained in zero! and no TouchBar... After another trial & error of open closing the lid, I saw the pass recovery screen again. Then I deactivated FileVault to reboot in recovery mode, and finally, I saw the brightness keys in the TouchBar!!! (it was a WTF moment).
I searched in a lot of forums if it was possible to change the brightness with another key combination, but it wasn't possible. My secondary keyboard is a MagicKeyboard that is Bluetooth only... so I almost have to contact support for a very stupid design decision to not give the users a secondary method to control brightness when the TouchBar fails.
BTW previous Mac models emitted a sound during power on... that would have been helpful. It's very hard to know if your computer is working without any feedback. And it's also very hard to hit the recovery key combination without auditive feedback.
I like the aesthetics of Apple design, but as an Apple user for many years... the change of priorities in the hardware user experience is noticeable.
The Display cable, while Apple making is 1cm longer, will only make it last a year or two more. That is 3 - 4 years of Display Lifespan. I hardly call this durable.
The Thunderbolt and USB-C design is a bag of hurt, the amount of short circuit , logic board failure due to it is unacceptable.
(Disclaimer: I have a MBP with Touch Bar, but I do 95% of my interacting with it with an external keyboard and mouse because I hate the keyboard / Touch Bar so much.)
The problem is though, Touch Bar and buttons would not work on 13" Macbook, the touch pad would be too small for some of the macOS gestures.
problem: flat keys suck
- the force of a keypress is concentrated on one point of fingertip
- finding the edge/center of a key is very hard
solution: concave keys
the keyboard on the first generation macbook pro were SIGNIFICANTLY better:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Pro#/media/File:MacBoo...
it was more comfortable - even luxurious - to type on, and your fingers could find keys and center themselves.
problem: dongles
- people will never have USB-C flash drives
- people will not have USB-C televisions
- people will never have USB-C ethernet
solution: ask people and give them back a few dedicated ports
problem: touchbar
- people actually touch-type
- some keys like escape are frequently used
solution: restore regular keys PLUS a touchbar above
At the minute it doesn’t do much except replace your function keys with a display. If it could render the dock or maybe take over some of notification centre, it might have some novel functionality.
What I’ve been trying to do so far is see if I can integrate it with emacs through a dynamic module, so it could render the modeline.
I makes your Touch Bar into your dock, and can include the date time, battery life, a mini Spotify/music controller, and several other useful things.
I don't use function keys much, and I need to confess the emoji keyboard is pretty neat.
It’s not thin enough to slice salami but I am a vegetarian so that’s not a big deal.
Speaking of which: Do you want to buy an X1 Carbon 6th gen? i7 8650U with 16Gb RAM and 256GB SSD.
The fast XPS 13 with Ubuntu also seems to really be taxed pretty heavily by electron apps, while the MacBook that is 8 times slower does just fine. When I switched, I finally understood why so many people on hacker news complain about electron.
Everything on the Mac feels like someone thought really hard about how to make it as good as possible, even if they were wrong in the end (like the keyboard). Everything in Linux always feels like someone said “ehhh... good enough!”.
Only downside that happened is part of the trackpad stopped clicking and one of the fans starting running crazy loud. Took it in to the apple store and they diagnosed it as a swelling battery (seems like a problem for macs so if it looks like your case is fat, get it checked out). Ended up getting the battery, keyboard, trackpad, case, fans, and potentially the monitor (it looked new or was cleaned extremely well) for $300 which isn't too bad to make it feel like new. I'm probably going to keep this computer for another 5+ years unless it dies.
Would totally recommend and I would definitely not sell it for $600.
Unless you go the Hackintosh route, you’re locked into Apple hardware.
For many of us, Apple is an escape from that hell.
However there is a workaround if you are willing to disable SIP and play around with a program called SwitchResX. You can customize the display timings in such a way that allows 4K60 video to just sneak in under the bandwidth limits of the Thunderbolt ports. It also requires a Thunderbolt to HDMI 2.0 adapter, and a compatible monitor. If you like fiddling around this is one way to do it, but I have found it finicky and not really worth it.
If it's HDMI only, as the sibling pointed out the HDMI port won't work. However, Startech makes a displayport to HDMI adapter which works ( https://www.amazon.com/DisplayPort-HDMI-Adapter-Converter-60... ) (just make sure you get one which supports 4k60hz, most DP -> HDMI adapters don't).
The difference is absolutely striking: I will never go back to a non "retina" display if given the choice.
My screen is filled with Excel and some sort of online database, usually. I’m also using my 13” MBP screen below this one for chat windows, email etc.
I would hate to go back to the lo-res 1080 days.
As for text, I've been able to use tiny font sizes and increase the information density since hi-DPI screens— my eyes are good for it. Ahh, iPhone 4 and retina MBP... they were astounding tech at that time.
MacBook Air (Early 2015) and later
MacBook Pro (Retina, 13-inch, Early 2015) and later
MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014) and later"
Earlier years will only do 30Hz, which is fully usable for development/office work.
Recently bought a second-hand perfect condition 2016 MBP with function-keys, and it's been brilliant so far, and I get proper 4K :)
The 2015 touchpad is plenty large enough to accomodate my needs.
Even dumber: Apple didn't make it work with the Pencil. WTF? Now THAT would be far more useful than the emoji bar.
The former shouldn’t set you back much. The biggest cost on the latter would be the commissions, but you may be able to find a forum with a decent buy/sell section.
I actually almost prefer the keyboard, I feel like having less travel means I have to press slightly less and can type marginally faster on my Mac keyboard than a normal one.
I’ve not had to replace anything, I’ve had a key that felt stuck once or twice, but after a good bash it fixed itself. But it is almost 3 years old now!
The Touch Bar is a bit useless I’ll admit, but using BetterTouchTool I’ve made it more useful. Shows me my company share price live, tube status and the time of my next train as well as shortcuts to my most used apps.
There are actually mechanical switches, like the Cherry MX Brown, that register the keypress before actuating. They're usually preferred by gamers because you can rapidly tap the keys without fully depressing them.
It's a shame there isn't a convenient way for people test out the variety of switches out there to find the style they prefer. Like Warby Parker for mechanical keyboards.
TBH, I think it's put me off Macs for life. While I haven't had a hardware failure, the keyboard is simply horrible - there isn't nearly enough key travel or feedback, and swapping useful physical keys for a useless touchpad is completely pointless - I have a cheap 13" netbook kicking around which has a far superior keyboard!
After having Macbook aficionados harp on for yeara about how wonderful Macbook keyboards are, I feel cheated.
I wish Apple would stop valuing thinness above all else - it's important, but there are diminishing returns. We've got the point where I don't want it to be any thinner - I want ports, good battery life and good heat dissipation (my MBP is quiet, but it gets bloody hot!)
I've seen a colleague carrying a wireless keyboard with the macbook >2016, and putting it on top of the macbook directly, no plate.
Also, what's the plate made from and what alt keyboard do you use?
1) the keyboard. This thing really feels like slamming your fingers into a metal slab. I think my iPad Pro keyboard is better. The MacBook Air keyboard is also very loud. For something with so little depth the sound is shocking.
2) the webcam. Total garbage. In a laptop this expensive I think this is inexcusable. my old ipad has a significantly better camera for video calls so I’m not carrying around both. Ridiculous.
3) the new charger is so much worse than I could have expected. The lack of MagSafe I knew about, thought it would be ok. Really a big loss. There’s also something wrong with the cable. It’s constantly getting kinks/twists in the wiring which I can’t straighten out, even though I baby it.
If they release a new MacBook Air this year I’ll definitely feel a bit betrayed. Like they knowingly released something that was a stop-gap PoS.
That happened with the iPad 3. It was replaced 6 months later since its SOC was totally underpowered for its retina display.
With one exception, they've released a new MBA literally every year from 2008 to 2018. At this point it would be a betrayal not to release an update this year.
From what I've been reading, the push for portraying Apple as a fashion company, came directly from Ive's side.
And it's not just sales; Apple generally ranks at the top or near the top in customer satisfaction surveys as well.
The keyboard I can almost understand. You might argue that there were true believers in the tech, thinking they just needed to iron out some problems and then it would be “so much better.”
The webcam is something that just makes me mad. It is clearly just bad. Even with ok lighting the video quality is just horrendous. There’s absolutely no excuse. It’s basically apple saying they don’t give a fuck.
There were many complaint about it. Somehow post 2015 model, all Macbook, MacBook Pro, or MacBook Air Retina has regressed in one way or another.
It's hard to unlearn old habits.
Those who are very pleased to hear they will be backpedaling on their updated keyboard designs.
Those who "don't understand" because they actually like the new keyboards (and the TouchBar even).
No matter where you stand, the new keyboards are highly controversial and divisive, and that's not good. The old keyboards didn't put people into opposing sides, they just were there. Sure people compared them to other manufacturer keyboards, sometimes for the worse and other times for the better, but it wasn't a hate or love relationship by the user base. There was no "getting used to it," it was just a keyboard.
I look forward to a return to a non controversial, highly usable and widely accepted as "fine", keyboard. I hope that's what we get.
Have you ever spoken to a thinkpad advocate re: chiclet keyboards? The previous mac keyboards were absolutely controversial. It took years for the previous keyboard to be 'just a keyboard', which I do acknowledge happened.
> I look forward to a return to a non controversial, highly usable and widely accepted as "fine", keyboard.
Honestly, this will never happen for two reasons:
1) people's needs are diverse enough where that's simply an impossible job. I happen to _really_ like the current apple keyboards, but the reliability is bad enough for me to want a change. The consensus where I work (100ish mac laptops) is that the keyboard is awful. Someone is going to be unhappy, and it sounds like it might be me :(
2) There's some segment of the technology world (non-unix people?) that will latch onto any criticism of apple - fair/deserved or not - and shout it endlessly.
I would dispute that people stopped caring about the keyboard shortcomings. They're ergonomically bad keyboards, just not bad enough to keep complaining for this many years. If all Apple cares about is what people are currently chattering about, they're missing an opportunity to improve the product, because I still regard the MacBook keyboards as a reason to buy something else. When I think of the painful adjustment that I'll have to make if I ditch Apple laptops in favor of something else, there's a voice in my head saying, "Remember when a laptop keyboard could feel good to type on?" Banging my fingertips into a hard surface all day never became "just a keyboard."
Let me guess, you have a guy feeling about this stuff?
I’m also noticing that the article suggests that apple’s real reason for change is poor yield and reliability. Those are objective measures, so I think we can agree that the current keyboard is bad.
I really don't know how one can come to this conclusion. Apple people bitch about _everything_ that changes. I think the one and only exception might be any time that they added retina screens to something.
Source: I am an apple user.
There's bitching but Apple's audience is always the first to absorb the change that eventually hits the whole industry.
MacOS Classic to Mac OS X? They kept Classic Mode around for 5 years for a reason. Eventually the benefits outweighed the drawbacks.
Loss of floppy drives and serial ports in the iMac? Bitching galore, but it was the right move.
Loss of built in DVD/CD drive on the Macbook Pro (circa 2012 with the retina MBP)? Bitching, but when's the last time we needed it so often?
Lots of bitching about iPhone 6 screen sizes being too big, leading to the iPhone SE. But ultimately more people liked the bigger size.
Lots of bitching about USB-C vs. Magsafe, but ultimately USB-C is proving to be the correct move.
The touchbar feels like the main misstep. I think most of the bitching would go away if they brought back haptics on the ESC key.
So, good riddance. What took them so long?
This isn't what Apple does. There are many examples of them making changes that people dislike initially, but then over time emerge as 'the way'.
It seems in this case they may have gone too far and have not managed to convert enough people over to thinking the new keyboard is actually better than the old one - though this is certainly compounded by the reliability issue and might have been true otherwise.
But what they don't do, and shouldn't do, is drive for non controversial and fine. There are plenty of laptop manufacturers that use this strategy, and we can all agree that Apple make vastly, vastly superior laptops to those brands. Mistakes might be made, but they're part and parcel of what make Apple, Apple. Without the risk of mistakes, we also wouldn't have all the other great features that the MacBook has.
To be honest I expect this group greatly outnumbers your number 2), but being quietly satisfied with a thing is not a state of mind as conducive to jumping into an internet flame war as one of contempt for those who don't agree with your own subjective opinion of a thing or things.
The big problem I have with the new design is the reliability. I haven't personally had a key stop working, but it seems to be a real problem, and I do think the keys on my machine that has them (12" Macbook) have gotten fairly mushy after just a few years of use. That shouldn't happen—a really good keyboard will last for decades and/or tens of millions of strokes per key.
But as soon as it started failing and i needed to get keys replaced it became a nuisance.
The old keyboard had much better reliability
... and thanks to Linux, it runs like on the first day.
I don't know.
I don't find the T520's keyboard to be any better than the MBP's. The differences in key placement are much more noticeable than any difference in key shape, travel, or response.
Am I missing something?
... and thanks to Linux, it runs like on the first day.
The integrated Intel GPU in my T520 is stuck on XDDM and never got an updated WDDM driver. So it can't run a modern version of Windows anyways.
https://support.apple.com/15-inch-macbook-pro-battery-recall
Credit to Lenovo, they backtracked within one generation, but I am not nearly so rich as to be able to change laptops that often so it was a costly design "innovation" to me on their end!
I think they admitted something was wrong as soon as they created the replacement program, it's just they have been completely unwilling to alter their planned product schedule to fix it early. When they create a laptop design they expect to be able to ship the same basic chassis design for 3-4 years and in this design the keyboard and chassis are so entwined they're literally bolted together.
We're getting a new non-Pro design revision with it fixed right on schedule and the Pro isn't scheduled to redesign till next year so we get the fix then. Both these fixes could have been in the market 1-2 years ago if they company truly wanted it.
They just decided it either wasn't worth the money, or wasn't worth changing their cadence to fix it early. Just don't think they have much respect for their Mac customers anymore and know they'll stick around.
How much development time does Apple need for a new laptop design? I think it takes them about 2 years.
So if you say they could have had fixed keyboards in 2017, they would have had to start designing them in 2015, which is a year before the 2016 models even went on sale.
My assumption is that they only realized that the butterfly switches are unsalvageable after the July 2017 upgrade failed to fix the problems, so they started working on new Macbook designs with scissor switches in late 2017, which will be released in 2019/2020.
Given that Apple is a company headed by a COO, run entirely on tight logistics, my strong belief is that they just wanted to use up all the butterfly keyboard key-mechs they had already pumped out.
I mean I'm not trying to downplay how huge it would be to dump that design early, they have an insane amount of machinery and production line set up which they expect to get a few years of usage out of and at the end of the day only the CEO can make a call on if its important enough to go back and retool early and your Ballmers, your Tim Cooks are just never going to make that trade off.
An ops person isn't going to lose any sleep over the MacBook line being downgraded from a great product to an ok product.
This is true for Apple's new keyboard too. We can't automatically assume it's better than the existing one, or that it has no issues. It's an unknown. For all we know a new keyboard might be even worse than the current one. Hopefully Apple will have learned from their mistakes but whether or not they've corrected all the problems or introduced new problems is something we can't know.
It's good that Apple appear to be listening and are trying to fix the problem (if that's the reason for the new keyboard) but I won't be rushing out to buy one for a while.
* It breaks.
* It makes a lot of noise.
* It has almost no travel.
I really dislike #2 and #3 but to their credit it is thin (which I don't care much about). You can argue about #2 and #3 being subjective which is fair enough (the same is true for it being thin). However #1 is not subjective, and doesn't occur in a "few isolated cases". It is a proven design issue.
What I'd furthermore argue though is that #1 and #2 and #3 are together the sole result of going for thinness. After all, the previous keyboards worked great (and I owned 4 MBPs of the 2010-2015 range).
Meanwhile, the prices of the MBPs have only increased which adds insult to injury!
There's this saying, "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". At the same time there's "release early, release often". The first version of the iPhone had serious disadvantages. Apple didn't release AirPower. These each had their minus. However Apple has failed to address this specific minus. We've been beta testing this feature enough. It is time to admit the design flaw, and move on (but don't Osbourne the current series).
Also, I even have my TouchPad on silent (I prefer than over the < 2015 versions even though the 2014 have less design flaws).
You prefer it, I don't. Many others prefer it, many other's don't. Like the touchbar, it was a controversial change. But if it then turns out to break regularly, then it is better to return to the previous design.
Personal anecdote but I was on an film set recently with mine, I'd planned to just work away because I was only going to be needed if things went wrong but on a quiet set I actually felt the keyboard was so noisy that I'd worry it would be getting picked up on the microphones. It felt uncomfortably loud even if they're filming a good 10 meters away.
I actually do like noisy keyboards in my own home, but the issue with Apple is if one size fits all then you really need to think of all the places that machine is potentially going to end up.
And unfortunately I cannot listen to music and read... I wish I could! But I can't...
You don't work with people using mechanical keyboards, right?
Not every mechanical keyboard creates as much noise as the other one though. And it also depends on how you use the keyboard.
If I'd work from home, a MBP butterfly would make my partner insane though. It could wake up my child, even. If you make your own noise, it is might be soothing or something. If it is other people around you whilst you're trying to concentrate you are violating their ability to use their time efficiently. I'm of the opinion that we should value such as "extremely rude".
A combination of Lenovo's keyboard and Apple's touchpad would make a strong combination.
I hope that Apple returns to making quality hardware without Ive present.
I quite like Face ID, the latest gen iPad Pro, and even the new Mac mini, and Mac Pro.
Sure the keyboards were bad, but like it or not Apple has a pretty obvious goal to get MacBooks as thin and light as possible. At some point they needed a switch from the existing keyboard design to make it thinner.
How about the first generation Pencil? To charge it you had to plug it in to your iPad.... it looked ridiculous and was very distracting. Thankfully, they fixed this in the second generation.
It puts the dock in your touchbar. It's the first time in the 9 months I've had this laptop where I've actually gone "ok, this is useful" and I am actually using it. I now have the dock auto hide and I mostly use the touch bar to open apps.
That said, I'd still prefer they ditched the touchbar in favor of function keys. I'd be happy if they shrunk the ridiculous size of the touchpad a bit, and put a row of function keys in between the touchpad and keyboard as well.
Unfortunately, so many people hate the current version of the touchbar that there hasn’t been much innovation in this area.
www.sonderdesign.com
The two worst keys are the touchpad lock key, and the WiFi key. Both of which "crash" the laptop when your average user hits them unintentionally: because either the touchpad stops working or the internet stops working. Absolute madness.
Keyboard: pleasant clicky-ness and little movement required. Thin AF.
TouchBar: customized with BetterTouchTools to be a hybrid of my most often-used shortcuts (expand menu, alfred, fantastical, window management, and 1password on the left, notification center and lock screen on the right) and music controls with gestures in the middle: shows current track, can change volume, switch tracks, play/pause, mute, or tap into a submenu to pull up most frequent playlists and add current songs to my library. Way better than using the function keys of old.
Oh and the escape key… long remapped to caps lock. If I really need caps lock, fn + caps lock key toggles it.
Getting used to the feeling of the flatter keyboard isn't really an issue for most people.
It’s a piece of shit, and even after a replacement it’s broken within weeks.
If you are telling me even a 5% keyboard failure rate within the first 2 year of purchase is an acceptable number that we can simply stop further discussion and say we agree to disagree.
I've remapped escape to caps lock too, but how do you get fn + caps lock to toggle caps lock?
I would say the toucbar is a completely useless liability, and the poor durability of the keyboard is an issue, but if they were able to produce a butterfly keyboard which worked reliably and had a physical escape key it would be more than fine for me.
I've never heard this before.
I thought some people needed their proprietary software that could only be run on Apple products, and that is what forces someone to buy a Macbook.
What are they best in class for?
EDIT: Thank you for the serious responses
Edit: And the best trackpad ever designed imo
The trackpad is unsurpassed in the industry
Low power consumption / good battery life
The overall experience.
The hardware issues are common, but PR damage control teams, stakeholders, and fans will bury anyone who mentions it.
I've never heard this before.
Lots of companies were putting their badges on inch-thick, mostly plastic 15" laptops with mediocre touchpads that never delivered the battery life they promised. And if your employer issued you with a Windows laptop, that was what you got. Remember laptop bags, when moving a laptop needed padding and a shoulder strap and pockets to carry your mouse and power brick?
That's not to say there weren't some good products out there - there were some well designed Vaios, some pretty daring early tablet PCs and so on. But there wasn't a brand where you could say "Just buy an X" and know that you'd get a good quality product.
Of course, in recent years a lot of PC manufacturers have stepped up their game (or maybe I'm just spending more money?) while Apple has had a few stumbles.
That's incorrect. You're referring to SuperFish, which was only on Lenovo's consumer machines, not on ThinkPad.
I only advise people to buy ThinkPads, and I make specific recommendations on what model to get and which options to choose after we talk about their needs. For example, most people are better off getting a better display instead of a faster CPU if they don't have the money for both.
Everyone I've advised like this has been delighted with their ThinkPads. If there is any "shadow" over the brand, it hasn't affected them or me.
Best overall balance between performance/weight/battery life.
Best trackpad, hands down, no caveats, no balancing against other concerns. It's just that good.
Best integration with other devices (iphone, watch, etc). Making calls/sending text messages from a laptop is something I'm unwilling to give up at this point.
And most importantly, it's _by far_ the best support for a commercial unix/unix-like OS on a laptop. Dell isn't too bad though.
In the end, unix or a unix-like os is hard requirement for many of us, and I'm just too tired of fiddling with xorg/powertop to get decent battery life. I just want to get work done.
(But yes, the unix-like OS that doesn't require a lot of fiddling about and has nice GUI is the big thing for me, too.)
After the hardware, the software: it's a GUI that just works with minimal fuss, supports most mainstream software, and also works with all the *nix stuff from Linux and BSD.
AND I can dual boot to Linux, Free/Open BSD, or Windows
AND I can run VMware or Parallels or the native Mac hypervisor (Docker)
I've seriously given consideration to the Surface Book Performance Base and the Dell XPS 15, but there are a lot of tradeoffs that keep me coming back to Apple's choices. The touchbar is not very useful to me but it's a minor thing. The keyboard I've been lucky (for 2 years).
But will they still keep that awful touchbar where the Esc and F1-12 are supposed to be? Then I'll still be passing.
I already had Caps Lock mapped to Ctrl. I used Karabiner Elements to map a Caps Lock press to Escape. It took about a day to get used to.
I’ve managed to get a 2015 model back now, but I’m sticking with Caps Lock press = Escape.
I miss the fingerprint reader!
I’m still mad about them ditching MagSafe but I can get over that at least.
I don't see how this lack of upgradability meets the needs of "Pro" users.
If you use the escape key often, it should be where caps-lock is. Mac OS X even has a built-in setting for this.
If you only use it once in a while, it doesn't really matter that it's a virtual touch key.
F1-12 has always been a horrible interface. They're too far away from home row. There's a reason why many hyper-optimized keyboads like Ergodox don't come with one. Letter-based keyboard shortcuts are always better, and are usually easier to remember because you can associate the letter they use with a word (Cmd+B for "Build").
The touch bar is objectively a better use of that space if you ask me, it just came with an unacceptable price jump. It's not that much better than the old key row
Blasphemy. Caps lock should be banished from all keyboards and replaced with control.
Blasphemy! How am I supposed to type variable names in Bash without it ?
Seriously, the only non-facetious use case (CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL) for caps lock that I've ever encountered is how EV Nova uses it as the 2x speed toggle. And even then, its open source successor Endless Sky emulates the same behavior even when I have caps lock still mapped to ctrl.
Does anyone have a real use case for caps lock? I'm even willing to accept a serious, no-kidding "YES I ACTUALLY TYPE IN ALL CAPS MOST OF THE TIME WHEN CHATTING WITH MY FRIENDS AND IT'S EASIER" as an answer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caps_Lock#History and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typewriter#Shift_key give some background. "However, because the shift key required more force to push (its mechanism was moving a much larger mass than other keys), and was operated by the little finger (normally the weakest finger on the hand), it was difficult to hold the shift down for more than two or three consecutive strokes. The "shift lock" key (the precursor to the modern caps lock) allowed the shift operation to be maintained indefinitely." This seems not very applicable to modern keyboards.
There used to be an option for Chinese keyboards but I don’t remember what those were anymore.
I have had reliability problems though. Mostly I’ve had keys that don’t respond, but have always been able to fix those with compressed air. But once I had a sticky key that popped every other time I pressed it, that required a free Apple repair.
Yes
> Yes
No. I like it. To me it feels precise enough for a laptop keyboard, and better than the good but mushy previous version, with which I could have tactile feedback but no key event from time to time.
The only issue I have with it is the Damocles sword of reliability (crossing fingers here, it's been perfectly fine for now) and the up/down arrow keys but I'm a liberal user of vim as an editor and generally emacs shortcuts so it doesn't bother me too much.
Also, they lose their clickiness rapidly.
It would be a great keyboard if you got a new one every month. But I expect mine to last the full life of the laptop just like my 2015 Air did.
Especially on Hacker News where people have such strong opinions about these things.
Hopefully the return to scissor switches is combined with some improvements to the touch bar. My suggestion to Apple would be: put a small physical ESC key on the far left of the touch bar on 13 inch models, and include both physical F-keys AND a touch bar on the larger models.
Bonus points: allow people to choose classic F-keys on the 13 inch models as a BTO option.
Is anyone seriously benefiting from the touch bar or even using it for anything other than as a gimmick?
The toudchbar is useless without developer adoption, and there will never be developer adoption if the only people using the feature are those who can spend a couple thousand dollars on a laptop. It seems to me the non-inclusion on the new Macbook Air was an admission of failure.
For 5 damn years the Air didn't get a Retina display. Right now, I can't buy 2.8Ghz Macbook Pro unless I get the TouchBar. I can't buy an Air unless I settle for much lower specs.
The dongles and USB-C are a mess. The 2-meters-at-most charging cables are a downgrade which will mean shorter battery life due to lesser plugging in. The lack of Magsafe is a downgrade, they removed a feature. The lack of any port variety which my 2013 Macbook Air did exceedingly well is a major downgrade. Consumers must carry a variety of dongles because the laptops don't offer a variety of ports.
Profits are fine as long as they don't lead to perverse behavior. Apple needs to stop playing these fucking games and ship some pragmatism.
The Apple of Cook is reminiscent of the Microsoft of Ballmer. He is totally out of touch with the product -- the very thing that Jobs inculcated.
I haven't evaluated the latest Retina Air, but if it improves on the non-Retina air with a better display and TouchID, it's still probably the best laptop for most people.
USB-C is awesome. I can reuse all my 3rd party and Apple adapters for my USB-C peripherals, including tablets and the Nintendo Switch. In retrospect, Magsafe wasn't that great (comes off too easily). Moving back to older USB ports really would make no sense. They're obsolete. If you have older peripherals, get the dongles. We've been using dongles since the VGA/DVI days or Serial/USB days, so I really don't get the problem with them. Life moves on.
I have a need for HDMI and VGA and Mini DisplayPort and old USB... not to mention lightning. MUCH rather would have a single standard of multi-port w/ dongles than a mess of fixed ports.
Also, on what planet did anyone have a Magsafe cord over 2m? It was fixed to the adapter. The 2m usb-c cable is removable, add it with the 1m (edit: 2m!) power cable and it is a further reach than any prior Mac laptop adapter I've had, though I suppose third party ones exist.
I have an external UCB-C 1TB M.2 and last night it transferred an entire 50gb directory of movies in <1-2 minutes to my MacBook Pro.
Amazon sells USB-A to USB-C converters that’s the size of a tip of an old USB-A and they work great. I have 4 of them and use them less and less as more of my external products are USB-C. The 3rd party parts market always responds in kind, just don't be a first year adopter and you'll be fine.
https://www.amazon.com/Syntech-Adapter-Thunderbolt-Compatibl...
Also, Magsafe might have come off easily, but every time it did, I went "oh, that is a nice feature!" I never once complained that I couldn't charge my laptop with it, the battery would die before the magsafe adapter would. Plus, why did Apple remove functionality from their power cords, forcing you to buy all the cables for the power cord separately? There were so many downgrades to the MacBook Pro, I wonder why I stuck with it... (Frankly, Windows was just that bad at the time. It's since improved, so maybe that'll light a fire under Apple a bit.)
The amount of time taken to re-plugin it in vs. times it saved my laptop from flying, really it was an overrated feature. USB-C comes out easily enough.
Don't get me wrong, I liked Magsafe. But I don't understand the passion for it, it had flaws and was a (nifty) minor feature.
MagSafe: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2WknqkDzLTQ
Phones for single hand operation: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O99m7lebirE
Mac App Store: https://www.macworld.com/article/1160331/WWDC_mac_app_store....
Steve Jobs used to constantly claim that Mac’s RISC processors were much faster than Intel, until the day Mac adopted Intel, then without blinking he said they are now much faster and never looked back.
That is salesmanship on a large scale. I thought Steve Jobs was the king of spin (ie convincing people of bullshit) until I saw Donald Trump run for President, and realized that you unlock a whole other level when you do this:
I have personally preferred the Magsafe adapters ever since I had a USB-C powered Macbook slide off my bed by accident. It didn't fall far, but it landed right on the power cable and damaged both the USB port and the cable.
Understandably, Macbooks are not designed to withstand any sort of drops, but I'm positive that the Magsafe of my 2015 MBP would have popped out, and the body of the PC would have been fine.
Except for basically every single Apple product I ever got that had one of those stupid white cords no matter how gently I treated it. I've never bought anything Apple related from somewhere other than Apple and have been buying Apple products since the first iPod with the physical moveable wheel.
I think within the last few years they finally changed how they made the cords. My replacement Apple brick for my Macbook pro still looks filthy after a couple years of use, but has surprisingly not started fraying.
1: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jg9AjCdOL...
Why do you attribute fraying and/or blackening of the cable to the connector at the end?
I, too, miss magsafe. I, too, believe that the newer USB-C cables are better engineered, and like the fact that I can replace the cable separately from the adapter if there's ever a problem with it.
It was at the point where the cable meets the connector that the fraying problem occurred. I suspect that because of the nature of MagSafe, many people tended to pull on the cable to remove it rather than actually grip the connector, which contributed to the problem.
But the real flaw with MagSafe (other than it being proprietary) was that the cable was permanently attached to the power brick. At least with USB-C, if the cable fails, you can just replace the cable - not the entire power supply!
Whereas USB-C is a standard connector on a removable cable.
That wasn't a fundamental problem with the MagSafe connector, but yet another symptom of Apple's detrimental obsession with aesthetics. The cable (like all Apple cables in recent years) had inadequate strain relief. Apple knew this, but decided that frayed and burned cables were preferable to an ugly strain relief boot. The problems with Apple cables are easily prevented with a few inches of electrical tape or a couple of pieces of heatshrink tubing to provide a satisfactory level of strain relief.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/why-a...
My Magsafe power supply is a decade old, and except for being dirty has no problems.
You've repeated it a couple of times in this thread, and this doesn't hold up.
1. The cord is standard plastic sheathing: how does that fray?
2. Are you in a damp atmosphere for it to corrode?
3. You don't qualify what "blackening" is. Do you mean become dirty, or burnt?
2. North America?
3. Burnt, i.e. the cable would turn brown at the edges connecting to the power supply or the Magsafe adapter.
I'm glad your power supply still works. This situation is sort of like the new MBP Keyboard: I've never had a problem with it, but many have. With the older power supplies, I've gone through at least three replacements over 10 years of MagSafe, not counting the new ones I received with new laptops. Much less expensive and time consuming than the keyboard so not as big a deal.
My point is that the Magsafe power adapters weren't this shining beacon of perfect design. They had flaws in practice, and USB-C has so far corrected those flaws (and introduced its own tradeoffs).
Yes, some transitions in the past worked really well. That doesn't mean that other transitions are automatically going to be a success.
ThunderBolt 3 is successful as a successor to the niche port that was ThunderBolt 2: for eGPUs, docking stations, some displays. USB-C seems to be doing okay in replacing Micro-USB. But HDMI, USB, and (for what they do) SD cards and Ethernet seem like they're almost in the same categories as wall sockets by now.
I remember being so worried about dongles and got extra. But then I found it better to just replace the cable to the printer and not have a dongle. Now they sit in a drawer unused.
It doesn't say anything about whether Windows is good or bad, but it means that no widescale transition away from Windows has happened.
The only hits I find on google are for a few sandisk drives with terrible amazon reviews reporting they're slow and get searing hot in the drive after only a few seconds of use. I'm kind of surprised sandisk would release that, one reviewer even reports theirs smoking after being inserted into a recent MBP. I'm also a bit surprised nobody has produced a working drive yet? Maybe there's so little demand for thumb drives these days it's just not worth the r&d to accomodate the standard with adequate cooling.
The bulky one on my 2007 MacBook had a much stronger magnet that the thinner one on my 2012 MacBook Pro.
People were annoyed when the thinner one got introduced because, indeed, they come off too easily.
It was another functional regression sacrificed on the altar of thinness.
Magsafe was one of those magical Apple features from the mid 2000s that just delight and work incredibly well and almost seem like science fiction. It's not like they had shitty power adapters and USB-C was an upgrade. It was the Hofmeister Kink of Apple computers, and they got rid of it. I just do not understand at all.
Apple under Tim Cook is motivated by shareholder value, not usability or design leadership, as they were under Steve Jobs.
They got rid of Magsafe and the rest of the useful ports and added USB-C not because of the warm and fuzzy feeling it gives nerds, but because it streamlines factory production and makes the laptop thinner.
At some point Cook decided to shift their decision making from being driven by the power user's needs to being driven by the shareholder and average consumer (which is motivated more by marketing flourishes like thinner laptops and the Touch Bar than usability). Shareholders would likely applaud that.
The point is that Apple is more Microsoft than Apple these days and we should shift our expectations as such.
A “former apple fan” should surely remember the hand-wringing over the iMac USB switch too. And Lightning?
Apple has always pushed almost-there technologies with benefits over legacy tech, this isn’t about “shareholder value”.
But up until now it hasn't been a unilateral replacement of all ports with just one type. The dongle I bought was an adapter for one port and one use-case. I didn't have to buy a new adapter for every peripheral I owned.
Ultimately if Apple had included a portable docking-station-like adapter that had HDMI and a few USB-not-C ports along with the laptop purchase I would be OK.
Except for the “make things thinner part”, there was the same complaint about the original iMac when they got rid of all of their ports and went USB all the way. The Macs before then had serial, ADB, and SCSI - and of course the floppy.
That is simply false.
The biggest mice and keyboard manufacturers still ship with USB-A cables.
Even Apple itself ships its mice and keyboards with USB-A cables.
Even if this is only used once every six months when something goes wrong it would be nice to have. I prefer to use the same keyboard/mouse combo for all machines. Just having that full flexibility helps.
PS/2 mice and keyboards shipped for many years after USB. I expect USB-A will be around for a long time even though most of us will have moved on to USB-C.
The truth is that USB-C has seen a very slow adoption outside the mobile world.
If USB-C adoption surpasses USB-A in a couple more years it will make sense to call it "in sunset", but IMO that doesn't make much sense today.
If it's there, and you don't use it, it doesn't cost you anything.
THAT IS THE ENTIRE GENIUS POINT!
The first incarnation of the MagSafe connector was a bit harder to pull off and just right.
The power brick had a 2m detachable line-voltage cable, and fixed 2m low voltage cable. 2 + 2 = 4. I can sit 4m from the wall and charge using only the power adapter that came with the computer.
I'm also confused why you seem to think that Apple couldn't engineer a low voltage cable with connectors at both ends. Wouldn't that solve the cable fraying issue mentioned in your other post?
I see many people making the same argument as you: that USB-C is better because the cable is detachable from the power brick. Can you help me understand why you believe that Apple needed to move to USB-C to on the computer end in order to make a cable removable at the power supply end?
Apple could have easily had the best of both worlds: Put a USB-C plug on the cable and USB-C receptacle on the power brick. Then put both USB-C and magsafe receptacles on the computer. The USB-C -> magsafe cable could either be included with the computer or sold as an optional extra.
You can use the very detachable line-voltage cable on your Apple's 60W (or was it 80?) USB-C charger too. The cable is removable at the power supply end.
Still the same with the USB-C power adapters, except that the detachable extension cord isn't included with new devices anymore. You can either use one from an old Mac, buy one from Apple (with the usual Apple-tax (https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK122LL/A/power-adapter-e...), or get a cheap third-party one (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=apple+power+adapter+extension+cab...).
Also, if the USB-C cord frays or breaks, it is replaceable.
I’m a bit sad about the loss of the magnetic connector, but overall I much prefer the new chargers.
I still wish someone would get around to putting 2–3 USB-C ports in a power strip which were capable of charging laptops though.
You can still do this with the USB-C power brick. Apple sell the matching extension cable, or you can re-use one from an old MagSafe brick.
The thing is, once you make the cable detachable at both ends, it eliminates the need for MagSafe in the first place.
A USB-C laptop will not go flying across the room if someone trips on the cable, because the cable will detach at either or both ends before that happens.
My 13" MacBook is very light, and I can even lift it half way with the USB-C cable. Pretty certain it would fly to the floor if my feet swept the cable that way. Of course, I don't have it set up so that can happen.
I'm surprised you can actually pick it up by the cable, however! The fit of the power cable in the USB-C ports on my (2017) 13" Pro is very loose - in fact, sometimes the power cable slips out on it's own with even a small movement. Maybe this has changed in the 13" MacBook?
The fit of my TOTU dongle cable is pretty tight, I guess, now that I think about it.
I sure wish I could join you in the year 2030 where USB-C is everywhere, but unfortunately I’m stuck here in 2019 and USB-A is still the de-facto standard on just about everything.
It’s nice to design a product to be forward-looking and adopting standards early when it’s foreseeable that they will soon become big. Like the Mac mini 2018, with its 4x USB-C and 2x USB-A. Got the future ports, but also the still-current ports. Awesome! But designing a product with USB-C only, for a future that is many years away, is pretty stupid, it just makes the product inferior and inconvenient in the here-and-now.
I appreciate my needs/requirements are not everyones but USB-C isn't exactly elusive these days.
Also, try to find a true USB-C hub. With that I mean a box with one upstream USB-C input and several (>= 3) USB-C downstream ports. As far as I can tell, such products still do not exist. There are many USB-C-docks with USB-C input, various other downstream ports, and sometimes an additional USB-C port which is power-delivery-only, with no data connection.
I have only found one such product at all, but it fits the description just barely: Belkin has a USB-C-hub, but with only 2 USB-C downstream ports, and only supporting 5Gbps and no Alt-DP-Mode on any of the ports.
At some point we have to upgrade if we want to stay current. This is the same with any technology, not just USB-C.
I just bought a brand new (released 2019) audio interface, connects with USB-A
In fact, besides my recent 2018 external SSD which came with an interchangeable USB-A/C port, none of my newer devices are USB-C
So, this is more like... I've got my VCR and a DVD player, and all the new movies are only coming out on VHS
Edit: I'll add to this - it's also frustrating not having any other ports on the MBP as well. I recently had surgery and was bedridden for a while, and the nest of cables I needed for ethernet, HDMI, mouse, etc.. was insane. Normally it's not a huge deal, but there's a lot of factors that have been making me regret not getting a Razer Blade when I was deciding between the two.
I probably won't be buying another Apple laptop.
Right now, it’s like throwing out your VCR and all VHS movies when DVD just came on the market and there’s barely any movies released on DVD yet. Did anybody with a sizeable VHS collection throw them away the day DVD arrived?
It’s too soon for “USB-C only” - at least for me - it would mean constant need for all kinds of dongles.
> Also, try to find a true USB-C hub.
I don’t understand why USB-C hubs and USB-C on power strips don’t really exist yet. They would be very useful.
> Update (2018-07-30): Accidental Tech Podcast reports on a rumor that next year Intel will finally ship the chip that’s needed for making a USB-C that adds additional type-C ports.
[0] https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/10/14/the-impossible-dream-of-u...
The iPhone doesn't.
$200 later I’m happy but when I use my old 2013 MBP I feel kind of slighted.
That keyboard though, nearly ruins everything, I can't stand it. This is both the absolute best and absolute worst laptop I've ever owned.
Maybe I should give a Logitech BT mouse a try. I've been holding out waiting for Logitech to release a mouse with a USB-C adapter but they don't seem to want my money.
The XPS and Huawei MatebookX pro seem to be better in every way, with the polish that is expected of Apple products. Think pads cater to a different market, but have all the same bells and whistles too.
The XPS and Thinkpads have great linux support, so it helps bridge the OS downsides to a certain extent.
But every time the XPS line is refreshed, people confirm that there are still issues with coil whine. It baffles me that this issue hasn't been fixed in all these years.
Fortunately it seems that Microsoft has experienced a renaissance. I wonder if Apple has the humility and self-reflection to do the same.
MicroHDMI-to-HDMI, MiniHDMI-to-HDMI, DisplayPort-to-HDMI, DisplayPort-to-VGA, DisplayPort-to-DVI, HDMI-to-DVI, USB-to-MiniUSB, USB-to-MicroUSB, Mini-to-MicroUSB...
Then there are the Flash Memory readers...
My dream is a Magsafe cable. USB C on both ends, magnetic connector in the middle (or near one end). Best of both worlds. But Apple wouldn't be able to charge $80 for that.
Like this[0] ?
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Char...
It's really great and has lasted for 2 years so far with zero problems.
No, they are not. People have been saying the same when Apple killed NuBus, SCSI, serial, the old iPod adapter... USB-C is leaps better than old USB and is here to stay.
I wish Dell had an XPS 13 with 2x USB-C Thunderbolt.
Just about any portable device can be bought with USB-C or wireless. For fixed desk hardware (keyboard, mouse, monitor, ethernet) you should use a TB dock anyway.
Yes, if you do presentations you probably need a dongle for the projector, but that has always been a mess anyway (VGA, HDMI, DP, DVI, it's never the same connection as your laptop).
Yes, if you use a camera you'll need an external SD card reader, but you'll need that for many other computers too.
You're not really refuting anything below, just essentially saying to people: you know, I know better than you, you don't really need these things (the same thing Apple is saying).
> Just about any portable device can be bought with USB-C or wireless. For fixed desk hardware (keyboard, mouse, monitor, ethernet) you should use a TB dock anyway.
Never had a need for a dock before...
> Yes, if you do presentations you probably need a dongle for the projector, but that has always been a mess anyway (VGA, HDMI, DP, DVI, it's never the same connection as your laptop).
I dunno, HDMI is pretty standard these days.
> Yes, if you use a camera you'll need an external SD card reader, but you'll need that for many other computers too.
No my current MBP, though, which is the point here.
My 4K monitor bought in 2016 doesn't have a USB C input so I need to purchase a $20+ USB-C to HDMI or DP cable if I want to use a monitor?
My iPhone SE bought in 2016 uses Lightning so I have to buy a $20+ Lightning to USB C cable to charge that as well? I guess I should throw out all of the other Lightning to USB-not-C cables I've had to purchase over the years?
My Apple USB keyboard bought in 2016 also uses USB-not-C so I guess I have to buy an adapter for that too?
Meanwhile my 2013 MBP is perfectly capable of connecting to a monitor and keyboard and charging a phone without paying for add-ons.
On top of that you suggest we "should" be using a $200+ TB dock anyway?
How about Apple doesn't require users to buy $300+ of adapters to use their latest laptop with modern peripherals?
From what exactly? My 2015 MBP and partner's older Air both have 2 meter cables from the Magsafe connector to Transformer. Mac power supplies have always had a modular transformer to mains connector that you can swap out for longer if you need.
The failure here is that they did not leverage their power over the market to drive adoption faster. Apple managed to get all the music labels in line back in the day, perhaps they could have done a little more to encourage peripheral makers. They could have, at the very least, dropped their proprietary lightning connector in new products in favor of USB, but I suppose they were blinded by the potential to increase short term revenue by selling superfluous future e-waste.
One would assume that they had gained knowledge as to how to encourage adoption of Type C with their experience with their previous supported standards which failed to become popular, but evidently not.
Adaptor and cable sales may have given them some revenue, but the need to use them, together with the other problems with their laptops have tarnished their brand.
I used to think that Apple dropping CD drives in the original Air was a dealbreaker, but we all know how that CDs are largely redundant. The same way, we might realize in a few years that USB-A is redundant
But this fetish to produce the smallest - we saw this before with mobile in the early day and that ended with what got affectionately known as the mars bar phone, then things got sane again.
But with laptops it is different - what we effectively have is - hey look at our new cool smaller and lighter laptop. Don't look at the now heavier, larger bag of adapter and accessories you now need to carry so you may use it as you intended.
Why their consumer base puts up with it makes no sense until you view the core of them as you view religion. Almost case for many that if Apple says jump, they jump. [EDIT ADD] This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEERq5tLiOY maybe sums it up :).
I like you comparision of Cook, maybe we will get a video of him one day doing a parody of Ballmer's infamous developers developers developers speech, with smaller smaller smaller. Maybe that has already happened - nobody would be supprised.
Had a quick google and yay - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Magnetic-Compatible-MacBook-Reversi... - though that was one of the first links that jumped out, nice picture of what it is, but if your getting one, do look around more as probably better or cheaper options.
My new Air's charger has none of those problems. And if the cable gets torn, I can just plug in another.
Even better, I can charge my other devices from the same cable. Right now, I'm charging my OnePlus phone with the same cable.
This was definitely one case where Apple actually practiced some pragmatism
I really don't want an HN where we have to constantly hedge against an absolute reading of our comments with disclaimers like "btw, there are exceptions."
I just can’t see myself having to do that very frequently, but I definitely remember the constant struggle that was keeping the magsafe cable plugged in.
Magsafe has saved my laptop from a fall many times. it's a downgrade to me.
Because it's so much easier to plug in. Get the plug close, and the magnet does the rest.
In contrast, with USB-C, you not only have to align it with the receptacle, you also have to apply considerable force. I've had my MBP fail to charge overnight because I mistakenly thought the USB-C cable was plugged in all the way.
USB-C cables also don't have the little LED to tell you that a) the computer is receiving juice (yellow or green); and b) whether the computer is fully charged (green). Just that feature alone would have save me from the not-charging situation I mentioned above.
USB-C cables also don't have the little LED to [visually represent status]
> And if the cable gets torn, I can just plug in another.
Personally, I am less concerned with the cable than I am for the power socket on the laptop, which if damaged could require replacing the whole motherboard.
Make a friggen magsafe USB port. Period.
You must be referring to the fact that the extension cable is no longer bundled with USB-C MacBooks like it was with Magsafe MacBooks. To me that's extremely minor. I almost used my extension cable. And the new wall charger that lets you just unplug the USB-C cable and replace it with your own is a big plus for portability because it means you can use whatever USB-C length cable you want for charging. Plus the USB-C standard means I can buy a very lightweight and relatively cheap PowerPort Atom PD 1 charger for my MBP that I keep in my backpack so I always have a charger with me even when I'm not home or at the office. In other words, way better battery life.
* I hate magsafe. I've owned a dozen of these and almost all of them have come apart just behind the magsafe connector. Expensive, proprietary, and fragile. I would much much rather have USB-C than shell out $90 every two years.
* USB-C is great. A bunch of different ports means carrying a bunch of different cables, so it doesn't matter what's on the computer-side. USB-C to microusb is no different than the USB-A to microusb. Actually it's better; the tiny dongles give you options without carrying a multitude of cables.
* The touchbar is meh. I would probably enjoy having dedicated Step In/Step Over/Step Out buttons when debugging, but I'm not willing to pay $300 for that.
The real problems with the new machines, which pushed me into buying a 2015 model, are:
* The new keyboard. The ergonomics are fine, but I am hard on keyboards and nevertheless expect 5+ years of duty (my last machine was bought new in 2013, and just wasn't cutting it with 8G of RAM). I can't have an unreliable and expensive keyboard.
* The price. A reasonably spec'd MBP is now pushing $3k. It's just too much! The specs of a modern maxed-out MBP are nearly identical to the 2015 model I just bought. Critically, I can't get more than 16G of RAM in a 13" form factor (and I'd really rather have something smaller). I bought a functionally equivalent machine and paid less than a third of what a new one costs.
I don't want a sexy svelte fragile expensive luxury status symbol. I want a rugged capital good that will reliably allow me to work for the next half-decade.
I just don't get it. I've had my MPB with the new keyboard for 9 months now and I hate it more than ever. The ergonomics are absolutely terrible, the layout (particularly the arrow keys is terrible) the feedback is terrible, the fragility is terrible, the touchbar is terrible.
9 months and I still can't type for shit on this keyboard. This is coming from somebody who can type over 100 WPM with 98% accuracy. On a normal keyboard, when warmed up, I can correct many mistakes without even looking at the keyboard OR the monitor. I just know I made a mistake and my fingers know what to do to fix it (a side-effect of having done dictation and typing out handwritten papers/notes professionally for a couple years).
They keyboard is objective crap. It's past time for it to go, or at least give us an option.
I could probably get used to the feel of the latest butterfly keys, but the arrow keys and virtual escape key and to a lesser extent virtual F-keys are intolerable. It’s like has Jony Ive ever had to type something? Hell no, he has people to do that for him, the important thing is everything he touches look immaculate in a 90-degree closeup and framed above his mantel.
I removed the escape key from my touchbar entirely because I kept accidentally brushing it when I went to type ` or ~. I also had the lock screen widget on the touchbar for a couple months, but I removed that because again I kept accidentally brushing that and locking my laptop when I meant to hit delete.
I think you are right, Ivy probably never really used the keyboard. He probably has a desk both at home and at work with the magic keyboard and that keyboard is decent enough. The couple hours he spends on the plane travelling between Cupertino and London isn't enough time for him to build up empathy for what the rest of us have to go through.
Particularly handy are the extra thumb keys (I use the one to the right of the spacebar for backwards delete, but vim users could put escape there.). Also control is in the right place and caps lock is in the hard-to-reach corner, where it should be.
One especially nice approach is to re-map all of the right-hand letter keys one position over to the right, spreading the hands apart, making right enter and shift more accessible, and leaving an extra column of easily accessible index-finger keys in the middle of the keyboard.
I don't like their new keyboards, and I have a Lenovo Thinkpad keyboard which I love to use, too, but Apple's slightly older keyboards have a spot in my heart.
The MBP keyboard is still a POS though.
Also contributing to my decision is that the Touch Bar did not work for me at all. I have less than perfect eyesight. I need keys with tactile feedback and that don't move around to be sure I'm sure I'm accurately hitting the right key.
I do still have a non-touchbar 13 inch 2017 MacBook Pro that I use from time to time. I move around a lot and work in many locations. I've cursed Apple many times when suddenly needing to connect to an older USB or HDMI device but not having my dongle collection with me this time... The need to carry dongles seems like a kludge that detracts from the elegrant compactness the computer itself.
I have a MBP but opted for the non-touchbar model because I happen to like the escape key (lots of time spent in vi - amongst other things). My MBP only comes with TWO USB-C ports. That means I have no choice but to carry around a dongle when before I rarely used to. What's worse, the charger uses one of those ports and most dongles are garbage that die after 3 months (finding one that doesn't is an expensive game of pot luck). To add insult to injury, one of the USB ports on the MBP has now stopped working as a display out (the USB-C connector is just garbage - but that's only one of the many reasons USB-C is a clusterfuck).
And as for the keyboard, how anyone can say "the ergonomics are fine" - particularly when you're a self-confessed hard typist - is just weird. It's by far and away the worst laptop keyboard I've ever typed on. It's no exaggeration that I prefer the keyboard on budget laptops and those things are cheap and nasty (but at least they work and don't send uncomfortable shock waves back up your fingers as you press the keys)
The new MBP's are what you'd design a laptop for looks rather than actual everyday usage. The fact it comes with a "Pro" label is really just an insult to everyone's intelligence.
Whether or not you stick with the keyboard you dislike, you should try to fix this if possible. RSI is no joke, and “hard typing” causes excessive impact on your joints irrespective of keyboard.
You want to be using just enough force to reliably actuate the key.
(This is one reason that bad rubber dome keyboards are terrible: they don’t reliably actuate unless you really mash them, which trains people to type much too hard.)
Incidentally, the worry isn't about no ESC key but the opposite. There's still the soft key on the touchbar, right where muscle memory expects it; but, since my finger hovers there by default, I frequently find myself triggering it unexpectedly. I eventually realised that a lot of what I thought were bugs were caused by my ESC-ing out of some intended action without being aware of it.
Then why are you looking at Apple products at all? You're looking for a ThinkPad or an EliteBook. Fragile expensive luxury status symbols are exactly what Apple makes and always has ever since Jobs. Now they're just more blatant about it.
Mind you, ThinkPads have arguably gotten less easy to repair since then, too.
I've seen such recommendations before, so my first non-Mac purchase in a decade (~2014) was a ThinkPad. I used to love the nub in the '90s, and I got used to it again, but otherwise the keyboard was horrible, and I eventually had to replace it. (A big plus: it was really easy to do.) Right out of the box I had a dead pixel on the screen, and, when I told customer support, they said that they regarded a certain number of dead pixels as normal, and would not replace it.
I'm sure I just had a bad experience, but I have never had either of these problems with any Mac purchase (aside from the fucked-up-by-design modern keyboards).
Also, for what it's worth, in over a decade of using and recommending ThinkPads, I've never encountered a bad keyboard before. Dead pixels are fairly common, though.
More like $15 if you don't mind 3rd party adapters...
> I would probably enjoy having dedicated Step In/Step Over/Step Out buttons when debugging
This is the main drawback of current MacBooks, difficult to debug with them.
> A reasonably spec'd MBP is now pushing $3k
Yeah, on the other hand 13" now has a quadcore i7 that is faster than 4790k. 16GB RAM limit is too low (32GB chips are available) and SSDs are way overpriced. Latest butterfly keyboard is much better than the previous variants; touchbar is the only thing that really kills it for serious developers.
Must we? My USB-C external hard drive and USB-C phone disagree with you. As does my USB-C magnetic adapter and my USB-C monitor. No dongles here.
USB-C is the future (for USB), someone has to force the change.
Apple doesn't support USB-C adoption themselves, look at the cables included in all of their peripherals and the iOS lineup. They are all USB-A. Everything they sell is incompatible out of the box if you have anything in the MacBook line.
I'm spending $300 on your keyboard and trackpad... and I can't even plug it into my MacBook. I have to buy a separate $20 USB-C cable.
Why are they not including USB-A and USB-C cables in the box... if you're pushing for transition, put your money where your mouth is and take the (insignificant) hit. Or sell multiple unit versions that include the different USB types.
There is no transition strategy. Years after introducing USB-C, they don't even support it themselves. It's just so thoughtless and careless, and cheap.
When i goto offices not setup for USBC and need to plug in power, monitor and ethernet?
At a conference and i want to do external display, power and my cellphone to charge it & tether?
With my 2015 i'll often (and easily) plug in 3-5 things at once when not at home (there i have a macmini)
This is possible because of the magnetic connector, of course, but it's also because the connector has a light that tells you that the laptop is fully charged.
I frequently sit in an office with co-workers, or in a room with friends, and there's an unspoken rule that you can nab someone's charging cable if you need to charge your own MacBook.
The light helps in situations where the other person isn't near their MacBook, too. You'd obviously never take a charging cable from someone's laptop that might be low on juice. But if the light is green, you can.
If they were doing any computation with the lid closed, that's not going to make you any friends.
The keyboard, although not as good as my Thinkpad, is far superior to many still and not bad. The problem I have with the keyboard is that it's not a user replaceable part and is nigh impossible to replace. Since it's the most used component arguably and wears and has moving parts and is exposed to the real world being able to for example like my Thinkpad of past take it out or replace it or clean it. Similar case could be said for the battery.
The Touch Bar I don't mind and like. Mapping the Esc key to caps lock works better for me anyway since I have small hands with short reach. I look at it as an evolution of the finger print reader you would often see in previous years on other laptops. Plus, it's programmable, which you would think the creative and entrepreneur bunch here would love and find many hacks and ways to take advantage of. I guess not.
I do look forward to any changes Apple decides though. The only Apple keyboard and computer I hated was the Titanium PowerBook. The keyboard on that and the fragility of the whole computer was terrible. My favorite so far as been the Aluminum PowerBook G4 12 and 17. Followed by the first MacBook Pro.
I'm mapping Caps Lock to Control, because it's way more useful. Yes, I'm an Emacs user primarily, but I know Vim users that do the same.
You can't remap Caps Lock twice.
And what will happen when Caps Lock itself will be gone?
The thing is you have to type differently on it -- no more banging down your fingers as you might be used to, just a very light touch that, once you get the hang of it, feels so much more graceful and civilized -- and no longer any strain in my wrists.
But I think a lot of people either don't realize they need to change the way they type physically, or are resistant to it. It takes a couple days to change your habits like that.
Tip: if you're one of the people complaining about the butterfly keyboards being loud... they aren't if you use less force.
I've used 3 consecutive mac laptops on the same balcony, open air. The one from 2010 and the one from 2014 are just fine thank you. The one from 2018 already has keyboard problems and it hasn't even been a year since i bought it.
So yes, the keyboard is complete and utter shit.
Going back to the previous generation feels mushy now...
Prior to 2006, I was a hardcore Linux (and then FreeBSD) fan, but I had to use Windows for a lot of work- and school-related tasks. When Mac switched to x86, I felt less nervous about investing in it, knowing I could go back to Windows/Linux if I wanted.
When I switched, what I came to realize was that Apple - and Jobs specifically - was mostly not content to just be the best option available. They thought through the last little details. They added accelerometers to hard drive enclosures to stop the disk if the laptop fell. They made power cables attached by magnets so you wouldn't send your laptop flying if the cord was pulled. They had a philosophy that the computer should Just Work and - for the most part - their execution showed how dedicated they were to that.
Apple is no longer in that league. Hardware failures, design failures, software failures including goto fail and root password vulnerabilities... Apple simply isn't a perfectionist company anymore. Sure, there is a litany of "What about..." comparisons you can make from times Jobs got defensive instead of being a perfectionist, but this is different. It used to be the exception. Now it's the rule.
That's why people are upset. Something that used to be reliably great is now merely better than the rest - a low bar.
For many, there isn't a better option to turn to. If you want a mostly hassle-free Unix experience with wide COTS software support, macOS is your best choice. But it's a lot sloppier than it used to be and that justifiably causes some angst.
The pro has 4 usb ports.
The things that actually need the massive speed benefits from USB-C (10G network adapters and PCIe enclosures) can have USB-C, fine with me, but please don't force users to buy and especially lose adapters just to be able to use their existing stuff. And no need to make shit ever more expensive and complex, a mouse won't ever need anything from USB-C.
For instance, in the last couple years I purchased a high-end E-Reader and a pair of noise-canceling headphones, and neither of them had USB-C as an option (the headphones do as of the most recent iteraation, but oh well). Also it's impossible to find a Thunderbolt over USB-C external SSD which has a small form-factor and isn't obscenely expensive.
I'm ready to move into the USB-C-only future, but the ecosystem still isn't quite there yet.
It’s sad because other than the fact that I hate it I actually love the machine.
1) Ditch it completely - return the Fn key row back but add button for Touch Id (a. la the new MacBook Air) OR
2) Invent a better version with Haptic Feedback so that Touch typists get a FEEL for hitting keys instead of moronically having to look down to ensure that they did not F* things up
If it really was a 'pro' piece of kit, I wouldn't need to put a sheet of A4 paper between the screen and keyboard to avoid the glass getting damaged every time I shut it (it's now out of Apple Care warranty, and another screen would be £500). I actually like the feel of the keyboard (although it is noisy), and I love the trackpad - anything else feels like a cheap toy in comparison now.
I've needed on occasion to use it with external hardware - soundcard, dongle for Cubase, USB memory, etc., and it's a messy pain. I also have a 2010 15" MBP I was recently gifted, and it's better overall because it's solid, reliable and has lots of ports, and doesn't need to be treated with kid gloves. Yes, it has the procesing power of a ZX Spectrum in comparison to the 2017, but I can live with that. It's become my travelling laptop instead of the 2017 because it's not a hothouse flower.
I don't know if this trend was solely Jony Ive's, but I sincerely hope they will make actual 'Pro' machines in the future.
However, I shall not be buying one. This cost me a fortune (twice as much as any laptop I've bought in the past), and it's once bitten, twice shy, I'm afraid.
I was able to get a few more 2 year old internal parts replaced while it happened so it was pretty worth it IMO.
That did not happen with removal of CD drive, adding USB C only ports, removing magsafe. All these cause some painful transitions, they did not make your laptop unusable.
FWIW, I have 2018 MBP and so far the keyboard has worked fine, though I don't enjoy the lack of tactile feedback; I can see the perspective of those who bought it and the butterfly became kaput.
You’d think with the thousands of skus they ship today they could figure out most people would be happy with a refreshed 15 with 2 USB-A and 2 USB-C ports (I can live w/o Magsafe)
Oh, and no dongles necessary.
My recommendation would be to avoid graphically intense work if you hope to continue using the machine for a long time.
I was seriously bummed when my machine died. Fortunately I was able to buy one of the very last Apple refurbed 2015 MBPs, which is still user upgradable to some extent, and avoids all the horrendous design trade-offs of the more recent generations.
Best of luck keeping the old machine going!
If Apple replaces only the keyboard, the MBP is the undisputed best laptop available today.
Also while your at it - produce a proper Pro laptop!
Worry less about the thinness and - add better thermal control - more memory - more storage. - extra port or too so less requirements for dongles. - option for matt rather than shiny displays - old style trackpads with physical click - the new ones give me cognitive dissonance
In terms of touch bar - it's mixed. I really miss the physical escape key ( but then I'm an emacs user ), but quite like the context dependence of the rest - as day to day escape is the only one that's really memory mapped.
So can't we have a physical escape key and the rest be touch bar?
Hmm, I'm afraid they listen and produce a $15k laptop... But ok, the MacBook Air is still in the lineup.
If I want something with flaky sound/wireless drivers and sluggish graphics performance- I build my own linux thinkpad laptop :-)
I mean that - I have one - love linux, but not blind to it's problems.
From my perspective, despite a whole host of issues, very few people seem to have actually moved away from Mac's. I hear a lot of grumbling, but you only need to look at this thread to see people claim that the MBP is the best professional-grade laptop available today, when the issues with the OS, the keyboard, and the touch bar indicate that this hasn't been the case for years.
I assumed that for this reason Apple would have stuck with their design choice, and would iterate over time - unless there has been a significant enough drop in sales.
In my case, I think it's definitely the latter. For Ruby dev I could switch to Debian tomorrow and probably be fine, especially since most of the stuff I work on from day to day uses Docker. That won't stop my workplace from buying MBP's, though..
I've also convinced my wife to wait on replacing her decade-old MacBook.
I'm in the same boat as you at work. I've got an older MBP, and despite a dent in the screen and some trackpad issues I would rather stay with this model than upgrade to a newer, inferior one.
I want Apple to release this same model with updated specs, why ruin a great formula by adding touchbar which I never ever ever use. It's like the R&D department/marketing had to use their budget or lose it and they cooked something up which made no sense but looked cool in promos.
Anyone remember the older Mac towers. Whose bright idea was it to stick razor sharp edges on the handles to pick up a 30 lbs box?
Or requiring people to use a metal file on their MBP so they aren't resting their wrists on a razor sharp edge.
Several years later, it is still a pain having to use dongles to plug in USB devices.
Now give us back the escape key too.
But I'm glad they finally admitted the problem.
Seriously, just go back to 2015 keyboard/trackpad.
They keyboard is very hard to use. The pen is laggy and there's no really useful Android software. I use it exclusively for watching videos. Go figure.
Still, I'm glad they tried it. There's too much device monoculture IMHO.
https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/android-tablets/yoga-ta...
Just a bad experience from Lenovo overall.
(Edit: for confused readers, what we used to call a "membrane keyboard" looked like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Magnavox... . I.e. literally a membrane, with key outlines printed and nothing else. You'd press on the outlines which would go down, traveling no more than a few mm, a distance that was barely perceivable).
The ZX81 (Timex Sinclair 1000 in the US), the Magnavox Odissey, all had membrane keyboards and they were absolutely miserable. They weren't laggy or anything, it's just that the nearly complete absence of tactile feedback made them extremely annoying to use for any kind of productive purpose. They were beyond terrible and I can't imagine why anyone would want to go back to almost that. I say "almost" because membrane keyboards actually had a modicum of tactile feedback, and some manufacturers did eventually give in and produce membrane keyboards with some sort of tactile hints (e.g. embossed letter outlines). Touchscreens are even worse than that.
Membrane keyboards were ok (and still are) for things like limited consumer electronics controls and 16-key industrial touchpads (they're basically immune to liquids and dust). But they turned out to be useless for typing more than 20-30 characters at a time and they were abandoned save for a few niches.
They've run with that design philosophy for a long time which has made their laptops hard to replace. I've been looking for a Linux laptop with similar specs to an mbp but it simply doesn't exist.
I don't believe you've been thorough enough in your search.
Great Linux laptops are often deceivingly marketed as Windows laptops, and you should expect the pricing to be similar to the MacBook.
Did you have something in mind?
I don't think it is bad as a spare power brick, plus the sound on it is pretty good. For pose value the TRON style keyboard works every time.
My point is: if Apple would ever attempt to do something like this the user experience would probably be out of the ballpark. And if it couldn't hit it - they wouldn't sell it. See also: foldable phone craze. Counterpoint: I hate the Touch Bar.
On the other side, nothing can emulate a good (even membrane) keyboard, because typing's most important sensory feedback is not touch or sound, but finger travel.
I'm a programmer and use a variety of keyboards. I have an 2014 MacBook Pro, a lowish end membrane keyboard at office and a Logitech G710+ with CherryMX Brown switches.
The winner is Cherry MX, hands down, but MacBook has a very nice tactile travel feel, so I can write way faster for a membrane keyboard.
The promise of butterfly keyboard was sharp tactile feed to enable faster writing speeds, but it proved to be too fragile as far as I can see. I've never used one for a long time, so I cannot comment on it with any authority.
When I bough the small Magic Keyboard 2 for use with my midi controller(I needed a bluetooth keyboard), it took me weeks to adjust. It felt like banging on a flat table for a while.
The problem is that I badly need a separate escape key(Vim user) and function keys. Switching the keyboard layout is just too much of a hassle.
The Vortex Tab 75 will fit my needs. Shame that it wasn't release months ago.
The RSI point is significantly more controversial. Practically any type of laptop keyboard or non-split desktop keyboard puts your arms and wrists at unnatural angles and encourages poor posture. I'm not going to argue that my non-split mechanical keyboard is any better for my health than a membrane keyboard, but mechanical keyboards give you enough customization that you can choose between hundreds of split designs or build your own to suit your specific tastes.
Besides, I've noticed that mechanical keyboard users rarely use the entire length of their switch travel; the entire point of tactile or clicky switches is to be able to actuate them without bottoming out. Typing on a MacBook keyboard (even the nicer scissor-switch kinds) feels almost like typing on a glass screen because you're forced to have each keystroke bottom out on the hard surface underneath.
I just don't find the idea that split keyboards are more "natural" to be true either. I've never felt a lack of comfort with the standard setup. Are there any well-done studies published on this?
Also after getting used to it, it was one of the most reliable and comfortable keyboards that I've ever used. However, I've eventually wore it down and its keys started to get heavier. So, I moved to G710+, and I'm very happy now.
First of all, the new switches are way too lighter than an old buckling spring or Cherry Blue equivalents. Also the ones I use (Cherry MX Brown) are way lighter than any moderately worn membrane keyboard.
The new keys are also more silent when compared to older buckling ones. If you want noise, you can use Cherry MX Blue. If you want absolute silence with no feedback whatsoever, you can use Cherry MX RED (and its friends). I personally prefer Cherry MX Brown, which is a good compromise between noise and feedback. My office friends are using Sun's old mechanical keyboards, and it doesn't bother any of us noise-wise.
Also, the mechanical keyboards give a much consistent feedback and their key weight doesn't change with age. I've used a Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 for ~10 years and its weight changes over the years.
Last but not least, nearly all of them are backlit. This is a huge plus for me.
I'm not after customization or anything in my devices (which is hugely useful for some), but its comfort benefits and consistency both reduced the fatigue and increased my writing speed and accuracy at the same time.
But I do understand we need good keyboards today.
Here is a small study that looked at it in kids: http://www.bradycline.com/2013/03/ipad-typing/
Another effect is the screen size. You can see the keyboard and text area in your vision on a phone or tablet, but it's not possible in a desktop or laptop.
Looks like it boils down to the information that we can gather about our fingers and hitting targets with the vision and other senses during writing.
Funny thing is, I can write faster while I'm listening to music and cannot hear the keys' sounds.
When I was a kid writers would discuss typewriters very similar to how we discuss keyboards. I haven't seen a typewriter in years. ;)
Is there a source for this?
'My keyboard broke' has never been a problem. I used the same laptop for just shy of 12 years. No keyboard problems. I'm typing on a 10+ year old keyboard right now. The only 'problem' is that some of the letters are partially worn away. Why not just use what works instead of inventing something new, probably more expensive, with new and different failure modes?
Innovation can lead to more accessibility, time savings, etc.
It's like the people who design these never used arrow or function keys. Did they think the gaps and positioning were arbitrary and useless?
After the sale to Apple, they stopped producing keyboards and prices for anything that remained skyrocketed to $1500.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=3940.0
Maybe that’s an idea, simply get 2 iPad Minis and display keys on them for a full keyboard. You could angle them and redraw the keys however you want. If you really need tactile feedback, just place the keys on top. No need to wire them up.
They used a parallelogram mechanism in addition to a spring to provide quadratic easing in force feedback.
Nobody tried the same scheme since then as I know.
I'm pretty sure the 2015 non-butterfly MBP was the best laptop Apple has made to date.
I don't need thin. Thin doesn't excite me. More battery would excite me. More ports. More anything but thin.
Needs to always be on
Needs haptic feedback
However, I am also one of those who's taking his 2 months old macbook to repair shop, coz one of the keys just stops clicking and becomes rubbery.
I don't mind the touchbar, rather the quality where dust particles break it down.
I've got [capslock] mapped to [control] via system prefs already, and I'm not willing to give that up. As a Vim user, that puts me in a quandary for how to deal with the [escape] key should I ever move to a touchbar MBP, and is one of the reasons I'm still typing this on a 2012 MBPr. I live inside Vim all day every day.
You can do all kinds of Keyboard modifications. See here for the mentioned mod: https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/complex_modifications/#caps_l...
There are the F keys when debugging, but I tend to jump between them and mouse anyway.
Since I only use Mac devices occasionally at work, I guess all in all it doesn't make that bad impression on me, versus fighting single keys for input.
(Although nowadays I mainly use a kinesis advantage keyboard so non of that matters much anymore. Hell, many of vi's features like hjkl movement don't matter anymore either as all the modifier keys are all easily reachable now)
No moving parts, even thinner, far more expensive, looks trendy, absolutely unusable, it's the apple March of progress.
The new MacBook Pro is looking mighty attractive now.
Original source from the article: https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/04/kuo-new-keyboard-macbook-air-...
dang could you update it?
Edit: not sure why this is being downvoted, this is literally the source URL quoted in the Verge article and Vox sites (including this one) are frequently filled with clickbait.
I use my MBP just as much as anyone, the butterfly keys feel so much better than the old clickity keys and I’ve gotten use to the TouchBar. F Keys we’re useless to me unless they were remapped, and now the TouchBar gives me a lot of options for customizations.
I’ll throw one crit out there though: the wireless mouse on my iMac Pro. When it runs out of batteries you have to plug it in, but it plugs in on the bottom. Wired mice have existed since the invention of the mouse, so it’s pretty frustrating that you can’t just plug it in to the front and have it act like a wired mouse while charging. This was clearly done so that the mouse could have its svelte shape. Sigh.
I do not miss MagSafe or the headphone jack either. I prefer thinness and lightness. I'm one of the people who have been satisfied with Macs for a long time and haven't considered switching to anything else, and despite what the loud minority may make it seem like, I'm clearly not alone:
http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/09/new-macbook-pro-has-outs...
Even then, there was similar snarfle about Apple "failing" when the new Touch Bar redesign was first revealed, where a few handful of people were opting to speak on everyone's behalf, saying that the new MBPs will flop and nobody will buy them.
Then again, this has been going on for over 20 years:
Apple has released many MacBooks with essentially the same keyboard design since 2015. If people really hated them, sales should have tanked in subsequent years, and Apple would have something different by now, 4 years later. The people who keep posting that they'll switch to PCs, would all have switched by now.
Do you suppose the number of people complaining here represent a significant percentage of the millions who have purchased MacBooks with the butterfly keyboards?
People who are satisfied with them aren't going to flock to every post to balance out the complaints. Those who do post in favor of the new MBPs get downvoted into grayness. There may be issues, but the incessant negativity feels bizarrely overblown and seems memetic at this point, if not outright paid for by rival companies.
I’ve been in numerous meetings where everyone is complaining about their new mpb while others in the meeting saying they are going to hold onto their older models as long as they can.
Finally, they are moving away from this design which indicates they too see a problem with the keyboard.
Why is that so hard to conceive for some people when they dislike something, that their opinion isn't universal? It can't be.
If this was a fair discussion, the users sharing their positive experiences wouldn't be reflex-downvoted.
The reason “we” get so mad is that “we” feel there isn’t really a good option for an apple laptop when we want to give them our money.
Your love for Apple is blinding you, I doubt they would shell out the money for a replacement program if it was truly just a "loud minority".