Hacker News Reader

I don't think people on HN are afraid to criticize the Chinese government. I just don't think they understand how bad the situation is. This is partially because the Chinese government has been extremely successful at censoring both domestic and international press, and partially because most people just don't care. I hate the discussions on Chinese culture on Reddit because the "discussions" are really just westerners regurgitating common myths and stereotypes they read elsewhere on Reddit. I can't count the number of comments I've read on HN in the past few months from white Googlers who have never been to China linking some medium post from a Chinese citizen "Asking for Google to come to China", as if that justifies Dragonfly.

This is just my personal observation and I'm biased in my heritage, but in America I've noticed that the problems afflicting Asians get noticeably less attention and sympathy. In public school, the Japanese detainment camps were almost completely glossed over in history class. Casual racism against Asians is still socially acceptable even at a time when society is more sensitive to prejudice and discrimination. Very people care about the human rights situations in North Korea and China even though, objectively, they're more serious and older than more recent conflicts that get more attention.

What you are referring to is your comments on my question about Silicon Valley members working in China: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19500740

This thread, which was about tech scenes in China for foreigners, cultural differences, 996, etc., started to breed discussions about organ harvesting accusations. The mods politely, but firmly, steered the conversation back on topic.

I disagree with the premise that HN is afraid to criticize China. This article being on the front page is evidence of that. But there's a way to do so civilly, and that was not it.

Edit: The replies to your top-level also show the difference between constructive discussion of China's authoritarianism and flat out attacks on the country, and the vote count reaffirms that, I think.

Edit 2: I might be confusing you with another user, unless you have an alt. Apologies if so. But the overall comment stands about moderators telling people to behave when discussing China.

No, it wasn’t me.

As a Chinese, I dont really understand the utility it brings to the table of people here criticizing Chinese government on issues like this NYT article. I dont see that it will make China a better place or bring new knowledge to the HN community. So I agree with the moderator's approach.

The reason being we (me included) are not subject experts on the issues.

>what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.

The problem is you are probably not at a position to be able to differentiate whether this piece is by journalists taking risks and unveiling the truth or just a subtle propaganda to some degree. (And i'm very surprised by your confidence in Western media on issues related to China, yet most of HNers understand how inaccurate media are when dealing within their respective fields.)

I can go on and on about this topic. I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants, rather than forming a China criticizing bubble here or somewhere else with other Westerners.

I'm not sure if I've misunderstood your position, but you seem to think that only subject matter experts should be able to criticize a government. This seems absolutely crazy to me, and I think you'll find that most Westerners share my view.

If this was how it worked, the government would be able to claim that nobody is expert enough to criticize, and it would be able to do whatever it wanted to its citizens. Kind of like how the government works in China, and exactly like what's happening here.

"You're not an expert. You don't understand. You're not from here. We do things differently here." The entire international community has criticized China's treatment of their Uighur population. Yes, China does human rights differently. We know.

Western governments are accountable to their citizens, expert or not. If the people think that something is unacceptable, they are expected to express these thoughts through the Democratic process, and then the government is required to change its behavior, even if the people were "wrong" in some expertly measurable way.

The culture in the West sees anything less than this as immoral or corrupt, and we generally don't consider things like "social orderliness" to be worth sacrificing Democratic ideals for, as seems to happen in China.

It's not a matter of talking to more first generation Chinese to get a clearer perspective. I've spoken with ethnic Chinese people who still live and work in China, and I understand their perspective quite well. Most of them have understood my perspective too. The issue is not that we don't understand each other, it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways.

It's very true as you said: >it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways.

But what I meant is really about whether HN is a good place to discuss this issue, where for most other discussions we expect to find some good comments from domain experts.

"it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways"

I think that should not give a license to stop discussion and criticism if you are from a different country. There is a pretty good understanding of political ideologies across the world about authoritarianism. We have seen the results of dictatorships and authoritarian governments and how they turned out. There is absolutely no reason to say that "It is different, it is a different perspective about governance". Absolutely, it is different and there is a universal understanding of what that difference is.

George Orwell accurately outlines what is going on in Kashgar and other regions in China. He outlined it decades ago.

If I were Chinese citizen, I would be the first one to question the government's actions. Except, that the Chinese people tried to protest in 1988 and it ended in a massacre.

I have been to China many times and I love the people there, culture, and how they live lives just like anyone else in the world. Criticism against the government and political ideology has nothing to do with "an attack against China". I know you're not saying that but I wanted to clarify.

>According to the World Bank, more than 500 million people were lifted out of extreme poverty as China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 6.5 percent in 2012, as measured by the percentage of people living on the equivalent of US$1.90 or less per day in 2011 purchasing price parity terms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China

If this is not the biggest human right achievement during that 30 years I dont know what is. I also looked up data from world bank for India and Brazil and they albeit democracies seem less effective toward eliminating their proveties.

Do I want China becomes an even better place? yes. I emigrated but not my close relatives and friends and classmates. I miss them. Can China become a better place by pressure from western countries? I doubt it. It instead makes a great number of Chinese more anti-western.

What can make China a better place in my mind, is western countries showing what real democracy can do to make their own countries better. You bet all the Trump/Brexit/US healthcare/wars/drugs are not making ordinary Chinese more exciting embracing democracy.

Or maybe I'm wrong from the beginning that you are not interested in making China better with those discussions or criticisms.

Doesn't China already have democracy? It appears to, despite two unusual attributes:

1. Only one party is permitted, effectively making that party a part of the government and thus being equivalent to banning parties.

2. You have to be a party member to vote. This is available to those with a good reputation.

Those oddities don't seem to be disqualifying. The USA didn't begin with parties or universal suffrage.

I guess so, I'm not arguing against that.

Furthermore, I'd encourage spectramax or anyone this video if not seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs (Basically under a dictatorship you still need to represent the citizens in some degree.)

At this point I don't remember what I'm arguing and again I'm not an expert in social science who can contribute to a conversation on solving China's problem or the issue reported by NYT. I hope HN remains as a place where I can always see insights from people who truly understand the domain and can give constructive comments.

The western world rejoices the improvement in life conditions and lifting people from poverty. Criticism of the government structure and its powers is largely a ideology battle than proving its effectiveness.

If you want to count productivity or expansion of borders or some positive statistic about Nazi government, there are many. But that is a largely different discussion. Note: I’m not implying Nazi rule to PRC, just trying to make a point.

I feel like you have an inherent bias of being Chinese and you want to see your home country improve and be proud of. That’s fair and a natural reaction. But your ideas and points are alarmingly irrational in my view. What you’re advocating is essentially justifying dystopian society that always, __always__ promises the good of the people. You should really read 1984 by George Orwell.

There is no such thing as a benevolent dictatorship or authoritarian government. When a man is given unlimited power, we are stupid monkeys that get an insane jolt by this “power trip” that’s its impossible to stay benevolent. Who is to say the next guy after Xi is going to be benevolent. Human nature and psychology is actually quite scary in certain situations (The Stanford Prison experiment, Milgram experiment).

I've read 1984. I dont know why you emphasize promise as I was quoting things that have been DONE.

I guess what I wanted to say to you is I feel this discussion will not be able to produce actionable or make ourselves more knowledgable on the matter.

As I said more pressure from western countries probably will not make China better. Chinese citizens hate the government to some degree, but if you think they are closer to western ideologies, value your version of human rights and freedom more than what current Chinese government provides, you probably need a reality check.

Since you have communication channels with other Chinese, plz go ask them whether they consider what's going on in Xinjiang is a big issue worth protesting for. Ask them if they would like to be provided better human right standards from western country governments on Chinese soil.

Plz watch this if you haven't https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

I've read those experiments. But so what? They are not physical laws. I dont like dictatorship. But say if China becomes a democracy today, how do you prevent China becomes next Russia (electing Putin), or next Turkey? or next Philippine? or next Brazil?

Democracy cannot solve every social problems. I dont think most Chinese citizens have the appetit to swallow your approach toward governing although I dont have any better suggestions. Maybe the helplessness from me feels like I'm defending current Chinese government but I'm not. I'm just not good enough on social science to provide a better solution. If there's one I'd like it gone faster than you.

Also: 1. Isn't it in 1984 the bad guys (Oceania) was winning on conquering the world? So 1984 itself doesn't really provide any solution to the problem.

2. I recommend you read the book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari. The main relevant ideas: a. The evolution/progression of human kind doesn't necessarily have to benefit individuals. (this kinda circled back to 1) b. Democracy and liberal values are only hold dearly by a fraction of human beings during a small fraction of human history. There's probably not enough proof that those values are indispensable to human progress in all situations. It's just during this period of time the super powers of the world happen to possess them.

I see what you mean now, and I'm sorry if I misconstrued what you were trying to say.

On that point, I think we agree. One of the frustrating aspects of the news / social media cycle today seems to be that outrage sells, and people getting agitated and talking past each other just means more impressions and more ad revenue.

HN usually manages to stay above that, but perhaps not so much on this topic.

But Xinjiang people aren't Chinese people, they're foreigners

> I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants

Fair enough. May I respectfully ask if you yourself, as a Chinese, have reached out to any Uighur, Tibetan, or other minorities to understand their viewpoint and explore if this is a reality being reported or just propaganda?

I have very limited interactions with Uighur or Tibetan so I said I'm not expert on the issue.

This guy has traveled in the Xinjiang/Xizang area and might give you some basic idea what that region is like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5t2sLWuYyc (the first video of his travel within China videos, there's no playlist I think)

If you know enough Mandarin, you can probably find some Uighur Tibetan people on Chinese social media like douban.com

Also some westerners live in the Lijiang / Dali region where there are many Tibetans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_City

I've never been but heard they are nice to visit.

> you can probably find some Uighur Tibetan people on Chinese social media like douban.com

The heavily surveilled and censored Chinese social media, that are filled with paid PRC posters? Sounds much more trustworthy than the Times.

Social media may be subject to surveillance and censorship, but that doesn't stop people from discussing openly about posts being "harmonized" or certain keywords being "sensitive". There's no reason to suppose that finding genuine Uyghurs or Tibetans on there would be impossible.

I have to disagree with this. I think that people are afraid to "clarify the situation" in China because they will be downvoted or harassed. It's the reason I'm using a throwaway.

What China is doing is draconian and brutal, but it's like the media is completely wrong about the reason.

First, this is China's reaction to a string of horrying terrorist attacks.

Second, if any other country was doing this, the media would be calling them "de-radicalization centers."

Third, it isn't about oppressing Muslims or even Uighurs, but "potential terrorists."

Of course the decision on who is a "potential terrorist" is the main issue. China is being very heavy handed and that is where the ire should be directed.

I think this article gives a much better observation of what is going on over there:

https://palladiummag.com/2018/11/29/a-week-in-xinjiangs-abso...

Yeah I think the moderators were influenced partly by Sam Altman’s persistence to start YC China, and now with the YC china running.

There is something all of us on HN can do though.

Stop buying stuff from China

Before you moan and groan and say it’s impossible, yes it’s possible. European, Japanese, and South Korean manufacturers have been moving out of China for a few years. Taiwan recently so. Hardwares are coming out of Vietnam and Thailand now. Footwears and clothes are coming mostly out of India now. Telecom equipments are out of Taiwan again.

With China, you mean the regime of Xi ( and some of the Chinese culture => foreigners are doomed to fail).

Don't put China on board with Xi like we ( Europe) should generalize America with Trump though. Even Chinese don't agree how it works now ( eg. 996ICU)

You mention Project Dragonfly, but have you ever considered that it could actually save lives? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18574181

Not everything is that black and white. I do have to agree, i have nothing against Chinese. But i have a big "problem" with China vs the rest and what they are doing now ( one road one belt).

https://www.scmp.com/tech/start-ups/article/2159878/y-combin...

I don't think there is any explicit pro-china bias, but without necessarily even being conscious of it, when you are trying to, or actually are doing business with China, you want to tell yourself as positive as story as you can about China. And when you are faced with horrific facts about China, then the tendency fall back on self criticism and creating some equivalency. How can we criticize China for concentration camps when America have the largest prison population.

We should totally criticize private prison industry and the whole racket - which we do. Journalists in America already talk about this, we debate, we fearlessly discuss.

It takes Reuters and NYTimes journalists to bring stories like this to the front of the world. They risked going there. The Chinese media is spineless.

There is no need to bring America in this discussion because as Americans can freely and openly criticize the government, sue them, write about it and condemn it. Freedom of press is a real thing in USA.

>Freedom of press is a real thing in USA.

Interesting you think that way. From my observation in China government controls the media yes, but here capital controls the media no less. You can speak freely but the media wont necessarily distribute truth, they are free to distribute what makes the most money.

You're not wrong, but I believe the permissive system is much more robust than the restrictive system. However, everything I've ever read about China makes me realize that it is awesomely huge and that I have no idea what is actually required to keep the "Middle Kingdom" functioning.

Even so, I think the CCP is making a big mistake with these camps.

- - - -

I wonder if the techno-fascist system might actually turn out to be more stable than the techno-democratic. (I don't like that but I've read enough sci-fi to be willing to consider it.)

Certainly the "fake news" attack is so effective precisely because so much of Western "free" media actually IS fake news. (I read Chomsky at an impressionable age, to me the mainstream media in America has always had a blindingly obvious blackout policy for anything too embarrassing.)

In any event, if the CCP can revive the Silk Road and partner with the nations of Africa, the Space Age may be Communist after all.

Freedom of the press doesn't mean there's no media manipulation. Do you see articles criticizing the private prison industry and mass incarceration of black males twice a week?

I agree, but it isn't useful to debate private prisons and the incarceration rate of minorities in relation to Chinese concentration camps, like it isn't useful to draw moral equivalencies between Japanese internment in WWII and Nazi concentration camps.

The USA did something about that prison population just yesterday, signing the FIRST STEP Act.

Full transcript of announcement: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-pres...

Partial video included with this tweet: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/11134886607779061...