How China Turned a City into a Prison
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
- while walking 1.1km from my home to the subway station, I counted 47 cameras, and probably missed 10 or so, not counting 20-25 cameras inside the subway station,
- every few days in the morning the police will block the subway entrance and check documents, I get checked every time probably because I have a bit of a beard,
- for the last month, I've been stopped in the street twice to check documents,
- for the last 5-7 years every bag has to be scanned when entering subway, and Q3' 2019 full body scanners will be rolled out,
- our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages, so the police came to search our house (no warrant needed), they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed), and they keep asking "where do we spend our money",
- car horns are prohibited now within the 2nd Ring, and the offenders' plate numbers are displayed over the city — think about the technology of identifying car plates in a 30+ million city traffic by horn sound,
- jaywalking is prohibited and offenders get penalties to their social credit,
- a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory, my wife's mom is calling us often to make sure we "study", her Party unit gets points for this, and if we don't "study", my wife will be kicked out of the Party with many consequences,
- my wife's brother is on the blacklist for high-speed train and air travel because he bankrupted his company and couldn't pay back the loan, he lives in the West and has to travel for 3 days with a slow train to visit his family...
Not saying these things are black or white, but this is certainly a scary direction and it gets more and more oppressive day by day.
That feels like straight out of 1984. I mean what are they driven by? I can only imagine the brainwashing that leads to things like party loyalty and snitching on neighbors because they look like they order a lot of toys.
>>they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed)
Given all this do you really want to be risking your own and your family's life by writing this on HN?
>>a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory
This is laughable. Seriously. For starters. Forcing or demanding respect never works.
When Google left China they did so because they had "...evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists."[0]
Since then, by Google's own numbers, the Chinese government has become significantly more suppressive and demanding: https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/by...
Given the status quo, what message does it send to the Chinese government that Google is willing to backtrack on their statements and work with a government that is even more evil than the one they left? It's naïve to think that the Chinese government won't use Google's re-entry as a tool for suppression, and it's also naïve to think that Google doesn't understand this. Their greed will only further facilitate these human rights abuses.
[0]: https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...
No one can predict how it will play out, but censorship technology has only improved since Google left. Having another search engine to choose from doesn't necessarily mean Chinese citizens will have access to more information, it just means that the Chinese government will have more avenues to disseminate misinformation. I could easily see millions of Chinese citizens being lulled into a false sense of security by Google's presence and fall prey to government watchers.
Believe me, I'm greatly disturbed by China's censorship. Talking shit about my own government is a right I can't imagine losing, let alone access to the treasure troves of anti-US thought. I also know how terrified I would be if my own government had the ability to lock down information. Imagine Trump and the GOP having that power, even for 4 years, and what damage they could do. (And GOP voters would make the same argument, of course, the other way around, and already do fear that tech companies are censoring their freedom of thoughts).
So believe me, I'm not trying to defend China here, nor am I trying to shill for the project. But it's not my lane to opine on, and I had hopes that if the project did launch, that some good could come out of it. But your concerns are absolutely valid too.
Just because someone thinks their company shouldn't engage in a specific project due to ethical concerns, that doesn't mean they're speaking on behalf of the people affected by those ethical violations.
It's perfectly reasonable to want to stop the project due to the ethical principles alone.
It however presumes that they know enough about the situation to apply those ethical principles to decide what's best for the people affected.
It's hard to find an analogy for this, but consider milk powder. Due past scandals about contaminated milk powder, Chinese parents who can afford it prefer importing milk powder from overseas. Now suppose China bans halal products. Should a milk powder manufacturer who previously exported both halal and non-halal milk powder to China continue to export their non-halal powder, or should they stop exports of both product lines to avoid complying with what they believe to be an ethical violation, knowing full well that Chinese consumers will then be exposed to the hazardous milk powder manufactured domestically?
The alternative to Chinese people getting censored search results from Google isn't getting uncensored search results from Google, it's getting censored search results from Baidu.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/world/asia/xinjiang-china...
I'm glad you posted this because I felt the exact opposite (it's almost always good to have my assumptions questioned).
I wanted to read some info but I had to click, see a picture, and then see some small amount of text slowly appear. I closed the tab after seeing that on the first image -- to me it's basically as worthless as a video. I don't have the patience for that and feel that the NYT doesn't value my time. Clearly some people feel the opposite!
I would love to see some data on these experiments by the nyt: do they show greater revenue than ordinary articles?
However, infographics are nice if done well. This one is done well
Luckily, with reader mode I had access to the text, though the images were left to my imagination.
Of course, I should make clear that I completely condemn this type of behavior from any country. And point out that letting China get away with this means many other countries will do the same.
With regard to religion, they can try to cope with this by driving people out, "reeducating" people, or manipulating the leaders of the church (issuing threats or just appointing their own Catholic bishops, Buddhist Lamas, and so on). I believe you will find examples of these things happening in modern China.
A Chinese going to Mecca to preach atheism is very different than a Uighur going to a mosque in their town or reading the Quran at home. And we're talking hundreds of thousands.
Note that's not to excuse the terrible treatment of the Uighars, but to illustrate that it's not just about their religion.
[1]: http://time.com/3099950/china-muslim-hui-xinjiang-uighur-isl...
Tienanmen Square happened because the Chinese government claimed there was "unrest" and "crime" when there was just protests about human rights.
Let's make the conversation a bit more constructive, can you offer a better, effective and peaceful way to prevent future terrorist attacks from happening?
Dozens of security cameras everywhere, inside shops, streets, and even the mosque. Mandatory government id, tied to a facial recognition regime. No shortage of well armed police, and plenty of fear.
From another article: " 120,000 Uighurs are being held in Chinese political reeducation camps in Kashgar prefecture alone, according to Radio Free Asia (RFA). Guards force detainees to sing patriotic songs, bombard them with propaganda, and require them to study “Xi Jinping Thought.” Beijing does not publicly acknowledge the existence of these camps, yet Uighur activists estimate 1 million Uighurs have been detained since April 2017. "
Given this climate, I find it hard to believe that this is the only activities going on behind the camp doors.
If there was ever something the US should condemn China for, it's this.
Wow, this is the definition of a modern police state. Sounds like a dystopian video game.
I feel that Googlers inside of Google has the same type of environment but with combined strong business justification to oppose project DragonFly.
HN is one of the most intellectual communities in the internet, I love reading comments just about anything here. Except for this topic - I despise HN in this regard.
In the past, I was told by moderators to not post any inciting comments that are about China because it ends up being USA vs China. What a shame...While I agree that the conversation becomes toxic, what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.
I don't think there is any explicit pro-china bias, but without necessarily even being conscious of it, when you are trying to, or actually are doing business with China, you want to tell yourself as positive as story as you can about China. And when you are faced with horrific facts about China, then the tendency fall back on self criticism and creating some equivalency. How can we criticize China for concentration camps when America have the largest prison population.
It takes Reuters and NYTimes journalists to bring stories like this to the front of the world. They risked going there. The Chinese media is spineless.
There is no need to bring America in this discussion because as Americans can freely and openly criticize the government, sue them, write about it and condemn it. Freedom of press is a real thing in USA.
Interesting you think that way. From my observation in China government controls the media yes, but here capital controls the media no less. You can speak freely but the media wont necessarily distribute truth, they are free to distribute what makes the most money.
Even so, I think the CCP is making a big mistake with these camps.
- - - -
I wonder if the techno-fascist system might actually turn out to be more stable than the techno-democratic. (I don't like that but I've read enough sci-fi to be willing to consider it.)
Certainly the "fake news" attack is so effective precisely because so much of Western "free" media actually IS fake news. (I read Chomsky at an impressionable age, to me the mainstream media in America has always had a blindingly obvious blackout policy for anything too embarrassing.)
In any event, if the CCP can revive the Silk Road and partner with the nations of Africa, the Space Age may be Communist after all.
Full transcript of announcement: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-pres...
Partial video included with this tweet: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/11134886607779061...
The reason being we (me included) are not subject experts on the issues.
>what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.
The problem is you are probably not at a position to be able to differentiate whether this piece is by journalists taking risks and unveiling the truth or just a subtle propaganda to some degree. (And i'm very surprised by your confidence in Western media on issues related to China, yet most of HNers understand how inaccurate media are when dealing within their respective fields.)
I can go on and on about this topic. I also encourage you to talk to some Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants, rather than forming a China criticizing bubble here or somewhere else with other Westerners.
Fair enough. May I respectfully ask if you yourself, as a Chinese, have reached out to any Uighur, Tibetan, or other minorities to understand their viewpoint and explore if this is a reality being reported or just propaganda?
This guy has traveled in the Xinjiang/Xizang area and might give you some basic idea what that region is like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5t2sLWuYyc (the first video of his travel within China videos, there's no playlist I think)
If you know enough Mandarin, you can probably find some Uighur Tibetan people on Chinese social media like douban.com
Also some westerners live in the Lijiang / Dali region where there are many Tibetans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_City
I've never been but heard they are nice to visit.
The heavily surveilled and censored Chinese social media, that are filled with paid PRC posters? Sounds much more trustworthy than the Times.
If this was how it worked, the government would be able to claim that nobody is expert enough to criticize, and it would be able to do whatever it wanted to its citizens. Kind of like how the government works in China, and exactly like what's happening here.
"You're not an expert. You don't understand. You're not from here. We do things differently here." The entire international community has criticized China's treatment of their Uighur population. Yes, China does human rights differently. We know.
Western governments are accountable to their citizens, expert or not. If the people think that something is unacceptable, they are expected to express these thoughts through the Democratic process, and then the government is required to change its behavior, even if the people were "wrong" in some expertly measurable way.
The culture in the West sees anything less than this as immoral or corrupt, and we generally don't consider things like "social orderliness" to be worth sacrificing Democratic ideals for, as seems to happen in China.
It's not a matter of talking to more first generation Chinese to get a clearer perspective. I've spoken with ethnic Chinese people who still live and work in China, and I understand their perspective quite well. Most of them have understood my perspective too. The issue is not that we don't understand each other, it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from government are different in some pretty significant ways.
But what I meant is really about whether HN is a good place to discuss this issue, where for most other discussions we expect to find some good comments from domain experts.
On that point, I think we agree. One of the frustrating aspects of the news / social media cycle today seems to be that outrage sells, and people getting agitated and talking past each other just means more impressions and more ad revenue.
HN usually manages to stay above that, but perhaps not so much on this topic.
I think that should not give a license to stop discussion and criticism if you are from a different country. There is a pretty good understanding of political ideologies across the world about authoritarianism. We have seen the results of dictatorships and authoritarian governments and how they turned out. There is absolutely no reason to say that "It is different, it is a different perspective about governance". Absolutely, it is different and there is a universal understanding of what that difference is.
George Orwell accurately outlines what is going on in Kashgar and other regions in China. He outlined it decades ago.
If I were Chinese citizen, I would be the first one to question the government's actions. Except, that the Chinese people tried to protest in 1988 and it ended in a massacre.
I have been to China many times and I love the people there, culture, and how they live lives just like anyone else in the world. Criticism against the government and political ideology has nothing to do with "an attack against China". I know you're not saying that but I wanted to clarify.
If this is not the biggest human right achievement during that 30 years I dont know what is. I also looked up data from world bank for India and Brazil and they albeit democracies seem less effective toward eliminating their proveties.
Do I want China becomes an even better place? yes. I emigrated but not my close relatives and friends and classmates. I miss them. Can China become a better place by pressure from western countries? I doubt it. It instead makes a great number of Chinese more anti-western.
What can make China a better place in my mind, is western countries showing what real democracy can do to make their own countries better. You bet all the Trump/Brexit/US healthcare/wars/drugs are not making ordinary Chinese more exciting embracing democracy.
Or maybe I'm wrong from the beginning that you are not interested in making China better with those discussions or criticisms.
1. Only one party is permitted, effectively making that party a part of the government and thus being equivalent to banning parties.
2. You have to be a party member to vote. This is available to those with a good reputation.
Those oddities don't seem to be disqualifying. The USA didn't begin with parties or universal suffrage.
Furthermore, I'd encourage spectramax or anyone this video if not seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs (Basically under a dictatorship you still need to represent the citizens in some degree.)
At this point I don't remember what I'm arguing and again I'm not an expert in social science who can contribute to a conversation on solving China's problem or the issue reported by NYT. I hope HN remains as a place where I can always see insights from people who truly understand the domain and can give constructive comments.
If you want to count productivity or expansion of borders or some positive statistic about Nazi government, there are many. But that is a largely different discussion. Note: I’m not implying Nazi rule to PRC, just trying to make a point.
I feel like you have an inherent bias of being Chinese and you want to see your home country improve and be proud of. That’s fair and a natural reaction. But your ideas and points are alarmingly irrational in my view. What you’re advocating is essentially justifying dystopian society that always, __always__ promises the good of the people. You should really read 1984 by George Orwell.
There is no such thing as a benevolent dictatorship or authoritarian government. When a man is given unlimited power, we are stupid monkeys that get an insane jolt by this “power trip” that’s its impossible to stay benevolent. Who is to say the next guy after Xi is going to be benevolent. Human nature and psychology is actually quite scary in certain situations (The Stanford Prison experiment, Milgram experiment).
I guess what I wanted to say to you is I feel this discussion will not be able to produce actionable or make ourselves more knowledgable on the matter.
As I said more pressure from western countries probably will not make China better. Chinese citizens hate the government to some degree, but if you think they are closer to western ideologies, value your version of human rights and freedom more than what current Chinese government provides, you probably need a reality check.
Since you have communication channels with other Chinese, plz go ask them whether they consider what's going on in Xinjiang is a big issue worth protesting for. Ask them if they would like to be provided better human right standards from western country governments on Chinese soil.
Plz watch this if you haven't https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs
I've read those experiments. But so what? They are not physical laws. I dont like dictatorship. But say if China becomes a democracy today, how do you prevent China becomes next Russia (electing Putin), or next Turkey? or next Philippine? or next Brazil?
Democracy cannot solve every social problems. I dont think most Chinese citizens have the appetit to swallow your approach toward governing although I dont have any better suggestions. Maybe the helplessness from me feels like I'm defending current Chinese government but I'm not. I'm just not good enough on social science to provide a better solution. If there's one I'd like it gone faster than you.
2. I recommend you read the book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari. The main relevant ideas: a. The evolution/progression of human kind doesn't necessarily have to benefit individuals. (this kinda circled back to 1) b. Democracy and liberal values are only hold dearly by a fraction of human beings during a small fraction of human history. There's probably not enough proof that those values are indispensable to human progress in all situations. It's just during this period of time the super powers of the world happen to possess them.
Don't put China on board with Xi like we ( Europe) should generalize America with Trump though. Even Chinese don't agree how it works now ( eg. 996ICU)
You mention Project Dragonfly, but have you ever considered that it could actually save lives? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18574181
Not everything is that black and white. I do have to agree, i have nothing against Chinese. But i have a big "problem" with China vs the rest and what they are doing now ( one road one belt).
This thread, which was about tech scenes in China for foreigners, cultural differences, 996, etc., started to breed discussions about organ harvesting accusations. The mods politely, but firmly, steered the conversation back on topic.
I disagree with the premise that HN is afraid to criticize China. This article being on the front page is evidence of that. But there's a way to do so civilly, and that was not it.
Edit: The replies to your top-level also show the difference between constructive discussion of China's authoritarianism and flat out attacks on the country, and the vote count reaffirms that, I think.
Edit 2: I might be confusing you with another user, unless you have an alt. Apologies if so. But the overall comment stands about moderators telling people to behave when discussing China.
This is just my personal observation and I'm biased in my heritage, but in America I've noticed that the problems afflicting Asians get noticeably less attention and sympathy. In public school, the Japanese detainment camps were almost completely glossed over in history class. Casual racism against Asians is still socially acceptable even at a time when society is more sensitive to prejudice and discrimination. Very people care about the human rights situations in North Korea and China even though, objectively, they're more serious and older than more recent conflicts that get more attention.
There is something all of us on HN can do though.
Stop buying stuff from China
Before you moan and groan and say it’s impossible, yes it’s possible. European, Japanese, and South Korean manufacturers have been moving out of China for a few years. Taiwan recently so. Hardwares are coming out of Vietnam and Thailand now. Footwears and clothes are coming mostly out of India now. Telecom equipments are out of Taiwan again.
What China is doing is draconian and brutal, but it's like the media is completely wrong about the reason.
First, this is China's reaction to a string of horrying terrorist attacks.
Second, if any other country was doing this, the media would be calling them "de-radicalization centers."
Third, it isn't about oppressing Muslims or even Uighurs, but "potential terrorists."
Of course the decision on who is a "potential terrorist" is the main issue. China is being very heavy handed and that is where the ire should be directed.
I think this article gives a much better observation of what is going on over there:
https://palladiummag.com/2018/11/29/a-week-in-xinjiangs-abso...