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Comment by _b8r0 | Hacker News Reader

I didn't spot where it said why the SFFD themselves manufacture the ladders (as opposed to buying them from somewhere). Should it really be the job of the SFFD to build ladders from raw materials?

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I think it's the only method to ensure that all the ladders are of perfect quality. If you outsource the production to the lowest-bidder, then you get lowest-bidder quality.

It's a way different thing to build a ladder that your colleagues (and friends) are going to climb, than to build something on an constantly more restrained time schedule for somebody you don't even know the name of. The latter encourages shortcuts, the former encourages avoiding them.

There are a lot of life safety devices which are made by someone other than an end user, after competitive bidding.

You either need to do testing of every article delivered, or set up something like ISO 9000/9001 quality management and accept that you will be paying a premium for a documented, repeatable process.

Counterfeit parts getting into the supply chain (which might be visually identical, and may even appear identical to testing) are a problem, but that's where having documented/audited suppliers comes in.

Or you could just pay these two dudes to build ladders that have worked for 100 years.

In San Francisco in 2007 there were over 8000 city employees making over $100k/yr.

http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/sfpay/index.shtml

Is this supposed to be interpreted as a bad thing? Presenting this fact with no context around it is confusing.

And what do you think the number should be?

Good.

> I think it's the only method to ensure that all the ladders are of perfect quality

I think there must to be more to it than that.

Or airlines are making their own airliners now? :)

The airlines are clearly not ensuring that anything is perfect quality.

Flying is statistically much safer than driving. They may not ensure quality in many of their amenities, but their safety standards are as high as they come.

That's not exactly an apples to apples comparison the space shuttle's record sit's between cars and commercial aircraft in deaths per passenger mile. 14 deaths in 20k orbits * 7 people @ 42k miles per orbit. = 1 death per 420 million miles vs commercial aircraft which sit at 1 death per 2,000 million miles vs cars at 1 death per 80 million miles. But, the shuttle is not exactly a safe ride.

Now, if you line things up by trip, it's car's then aircraft then the shuttle.

> I think it's the only method to ensure that all the ladders are of perfect quality.

Then what about their trucks, their hats and coats, their hoses, and so on?

I wonder what it does to workmens-comp and liability insurance when you build the equipment your employees use as opposed to something bought from a vendor.

When a ladder breaks and a firefighter breaks a leg, the department can't really sue itself, can it?

The video says that nobody has been injured on these wooden ladders - nobody has fallen off. It's implied that none of them have broken in action. Probably worth it to them.

> When a ladder breaks and a firefighter breaks a leg, the department can't really sue itself, can it?

The department doesn't sue, the firefighter does.

Department-made equipment means that the city is the only party on the other side of the lawsuit.

I don't think it's just a quality concern. The video mentions a 15-year "maturation period" for the wood to acclimate to the humidity in San Francisco. If that's a requirement, I doubt there's much of a market (and space) for manufacturing to take place out in the city itself.

Maybe wood used for wine barrels? Doesn't seem like much of a market.

That isn't unique to ladders - wood for any project should acclimate to its environment (humidity) before starting construction and it doesn't take 15 years.

Actually, the time it takes is roughly dependent on the thickness of the wood and the delta in humidity from the place where it was cut and the place where it will be used.

Typically you want to avoid wood used for ladders drying out after the ladder is put together because it will loosen the joints.

The varnish helps with this as well.

OK. And it doesn't take 15 years for the moisture content of wood in the thickness they are using for those ladders to come to equilibrium. And that is assuming that the moisture content is asymptotically approaching some target humidity. Since the humidity in San Francisco varies quite a lot the target ambient humidity is not constant.

So although they may make fine ladders, it's not because they have the wood sitting around for over a decade.

The longer you acclimate the wood, the tighter the joints are. You also are able to spot flaws in the wood. This is one of the reasons why people recover wood from old barns -- a farmer I worked for in high school was offered a substantial amount of money for wood in a Dutch barn built in the 1600's.

These guys are old-school craftsman who are obsessed with quality. Refreshing in this age of disposability.

The reason old wood is valuable is because it has characteristics that are not available in lumber harvested today. These include grain, width of planks and density. Not because its moisture content has had several centuries to change.

When you have a plank, post or beam that has stood in place in an unheated barn for 400 years, it has been subject to the vagaries and every permutation of hot & cold, damp & dry.

These cycles bring out the best and worst of the wood. Obviously you are recovering old wood in a barn for other reasons as well, but in the ladder scenario, they want top notch wood that will last. Since SFFD has ladders that have been in active service since 1919, they obviously have that down.

Undoubtedly the astrological sign of the wood is also a factor in how the wood has responded to its life experiences, but that is all irrelevant for making a ladder as long as the wood's moisture content has stabilized suitably for its target environment.

Because SF has low hanging power lines and because the weight makes them more stable in windy situations. Why not? It's not like if they had firemen do ladders in their free time. They have a different department where only 2 people work making ladders.

For maybe $700,000 a year, between public servant wages, benefits, and rent.

What does that have to do with the question? There's a reason they make their own ladders regardless of what it costs.

a). it is a tradition b). they want to keep the tradition c). they like building the ladders to ensure safety for their fellow firefighters d). why even question whether they should keep doing it or not. leave them to continue their traditions and handiwork.

I'm not going to get into whether it's right or not, but "why even question it?" - because they are spending other people's money.

I suspect you can find many larger, clearer, and more pressing "wastes" of public money than this.

Although it would be a good idea to check the income and pension deals the shop staff have to make sure they're sane.

> I suspect you can find many larger, clearer, and more pressing "wastes" of public money than this.

No doubt about it. I was just answering the question "why even ask".

They mentioned something about overhead electrical cables.

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