Why the San Francisco Fire Dept manufactures their own wooden ladders (video)
devour.com
devour.com
"The San Francisco Fire Department has been "green" since before it was a fad"
I live across the bay from SF, but if I was a resident of San Francisco, I would seriously consider this an inefficient use of public funds unless they had data to prove that wood ladders are economically superior to fiberglass ladders.
Update: check starpilot's link here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1854136, which has a lot more information on the reasoning behind the use of wood.
An aluminum ladder conducts electricity, but also conducts heat. I let a ladder on a black shingle roof one day in the middle of summer and I had to get gloves to hold it long enough to literally throw it off the roof.
> "You don't want to use a 50-foot lightweight aluminum ladder in heavy winds -- it's too dangerous," Cohane said.
Can and do, but fixing the feet and using tie-offs isn't exactly practical for firefighters.
> The largest ladder they make is 50 feet, weighs 350 pounds and takes six firefighters to lift.
Compare this to the largest ladder we use, which is IIRC 40 feet and is easily moved by one man if done properly (we've had guys fall with them before).
There are other large US cities with wind, one is even known as the "Windy City" (although it isn't the windiest). All of them need nonconductive and heat resistant.
So, what makes SF's ladder needs unique?
If the ladders are twice as much, but due to the peculiar electrical and atmospheric (wind) conditions in SF, could it be argued that these ladders increase the safety of the firefighters?
TCO would also have to be measured to be certain that this is worth it or not. If aluminum ladders are half as much, but last a quarter of the time… then it's arguable that the wooden ladders are cheaper.
Imagine a whole branch of a municipality where more than half the people are managers sitting around and doing nothing. They're all making upwards of 100k, and they're all covering each other's asses. Their propaganda machine is bigger than yours. Now before all you Republicans and Libertarians get all smart-ass, I should add that it happens plenty often in the military-industrial complex too with the contractors who do the majority of the real work. Same stories, different people.
Funny that you mention Libertarians when they're hardly defenders of the military-industrial complex.
Kindly put a warning in the title when you post videos. Especially when they
a. play automatically
b. don't have any actual article accompanying themThey said sales of wooden ladders doubled in the 5 years prior to when the article was written.
It's a way different thing to build a ladder that your colleagues (and friends) are going to climb, than to build something on an constantly more restrained time schedule for somebody you don't even know the name of. The latter encourages shortcuts, the former encourages avoiding them.
You either need to do testing of every article delivered, or set up something like ISO 9000/9001 quality management and accept that you will be paying a premium for a documented, repeatable process.
Counterfeit parts getting into the supply chain (which might be visually identical, and may even appear identical to testing) are a problem, but that's where having documented/audited suppliers comes in.
I think there must to be more to it than that.
Or airlines are making their own airliners now? :)
Now, if you line things up by trip, it's car's then aircraft then the shuttle.
When a ladder breaks and a firefighter breaks a leg, the department can't really sue itself, can it?
The department doesn't sue, the firefighter does.
Department-made equipment means that the city is the only party on the other side of the lawsuit.
Then what about their trucks, their hats and coats, their hoses, and so on?
Maybe wood used for wine barrels? Doesn't seem like much of a market.
Typically you want to avoid wood used for ladders drying out after the ladder is put together because it will loosen the joints.
The varnish helps with this as well.
So although they may make fine ladders, it's not because they have the wood sitting around for over a decade.
These guys are old-school craftsman who are obsessed with quality. Refreshing in this age of disposability.
These cycles bring out the best and worst of the wood. Obviously you are recovering old wood in a barn for other reasons as well, but in the ladder scenario, they want top notch wood that will last. Since SFFD has ladders that have been in active service since 1919, they obviously have that down.
Although it would be a good idea to check the income and pension deals the shop staff have to make sure they're sane.
No doubt about it. I was just answering the question "why even ask".
You wouldn't want to use an aluminum ladder near power lines, of course. So how about fiberglass ladders? After searching on "firefighter fiberglass ladder" you get http://www.fireladder.com/fiberglass.html
There's no 50 foot model, like the one talked about in the video, but there's a 40 foot version. Costs half as much, and weighs half as much. It's non-conductive, and most importantly, it's made by a civilian contractor, so you don't have to run your own ladder building shop.
In a high-wind city like San Francisco, being too light is a bug, not a feature.
The one upside beyond cosmetics I can think of is they probably don't get hot the way metal does.
edit: OK, I finished watching the video, I understand now. So it's not that they are necessarily better than metal, but they are necessary in SF.
metal on the other hand loses structural integrity when exposed to heat shockingly fast. the wtc towers showcased this effect quite publicly.
experienced firefighters prefer to deal with fire in wooden structures than in metal ones. they can predict how long a wooden roof structure will take till collapse quite well, while a metal structure is a nightmare.
so, flammability and structural integrity under heat are two different things. non-intuitive for most non-engineers, hence the retarded wtc discussions.
in SF's case they use wood because of its function as an isolator.
but isn't that at extremely high temperature? Wouldn't that same amount of heat burn wood far faster than it would damage metal?
The wtc towers were exposed to jet fuel and beaten by a jetliner slamming into the building. Also, the metal beams in the wtc towers were made of steel while ladders are made of aluminum.
So you need a ladder that can cope with such problems.
If you build it from right type of wood prepared the right way - those things are incredible. They are insulators - helping with electricity AND heat. They are predictable...
Wood is an awesome material - but it takes time and expertise to do it right - thus making it expensive. But nevertheless the highest quality and style items are still made of wood - it just ain't cheap. Think: furniture, insulation, windows, doors, floors, stairs... Hell wooden shingle roofs can and do last over hundred years if prepared properly.