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Comment by eksemplar | Hacker News Reader

I upgraded from a late 2015 to a 2018 earlier this fall.

I don’t really miss anything, especially not the weight or the keyboard.

The touchbar has never been of use to me though. It doesn’t annoy me much, but the user design for changing volume requires more clicks than the non touchbar, so it’s obviously terrible design.

I don’t miss any of the ports, I thought I would, but it’s not like there was an Ethernet port so I still needed a dongle for the 2015 version.

There’s certainly room for improvement, but the 512gb 13” version isn’t crazy expensive for what you’re getting compared to other laptops, at least not in my country.

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The keyboard is the part I dislike the most on the 2017, although I heard they made it better on the 2018. Loud, no travel, requires more force to actuate, more difficult to touch type reliably because I can barely feel the edges of the keys.

I definitely hate the touchbar, for the same reason. I just want the buttons I need to be there when I need them. Changing volume or screen brightness just takes that much longer and I have no tactile feedback, so I actually have to look at the keyboard instead of relying on muscle memory.

I mostly don't care about the ports, but I'd still rather not have to use dongles if I don't have to. Would it have been that hard to add one or two USB 3.0 ports? No, but then how would they sell $80 dongles?

I think the keyboard is down to preference, I prefer the new one.

It does seem silly not to include a dongle in the box though. I mean, I’m buying apple because I want my tech to just work, and now my mouse or magic keyboard can’t connect and charge?

The only real port annoyance I have though, is the damn headphone jack. :p I mean, I can’t connect my iPhone XS headphones to my MacBook Pro...

I'm not saying that a USB adapter wouldn't be useful, but for your specific use case (which is pretty rare: using an external keyboard and mouse with your laptop) you shouldn't need an adapter at all. You should be able to connect to both through Bluetooth.

> You should be able to connect to both through Bluetooth.

Did I miss the news about charging devices over bluetooth?

You don't need to charge your keyboard and mouse from your computer; I'm assuming you have a USB-A power brick from your phone, tablet, etc. already that you can use to charge your stuff.

So, yet another device to carry around that used to be part of the functionality of a laptop.

If you were already carrying a 15" laptop plus full-size external keyboard plus mouse plus power brick for the laptop, a dongle is not much of a burden to add on. And many people who did that with USB-A machines tended to carry other accessories as well and end up with an external USB hub in the bag too.

I have a keyboard and mouse at my desk. I plug them into my laptop when I'm working at my desk. I don't carry them with me at all times, though, and I don't know many people who've ever done that.

No, not really, since you'd have to carry around a USB to Lightning charging cable even if your laptop had a standard USB-A port.

I installed BetterTouchTool on mine, and you can configure an action to run when sliding anywhere on the touchbar with 2, 3 or 4 fingers. I set 2 fingers to volume control and 4 fingers to brightness and that works pretty well, no need to look. I also make it display the time and battery percentage at all times, which is nice to have when an app is running full screen. BTT isn't free, but it's pretty cheap, worth it IMO.

BTT is so useful it ought to be bought by Apple and incorporated in the OS. Throw in the top 20 used presets as checkboxes and be done with it. It's the first thing I install when I set up a Mac.

I actually made the same comment about the volume touch bar when it came out... Another hidden Apple os interaction: if you have it set to slider you can just hit it and move your finger without lifting even if not 'hover' the slide area. Or you can change to the old mute, quite, loud buttons in settings

I'm fine with using the keyboard. I'm not fine how the keyboard fails all the time still and how unrepairable it is for an easy to break part.

Apple is moving more and more away from acura into mercedes car territory.

You touch and drag to change volume. Not sure how that could possibly be more clicks?

Depends on which OS you have. The touch bar behaves differently in Mojave than it did in Sierra. The mode I used in Sierra is no longer available in the Mojave, and I've had to re-learn the touch bar. First thing up, remove the damned Siri button so I don't accidentally hit it when reaching for the delete button.

Has anyone used Siri on the desktop? I tried once to set a timer with it, and it said it couldn’t. WTF Siri? You have a clock.

And then I never used it again.

I _can't_. "Hey Siri" picks up faster on my phone, and when the mac hears the acknowledgement chirp it shuts that down.

Ha! Did they seriously not come across this in testing? Blows my mind.

I'm not sure what you mean; Siri only activating on a single device at a time is absolutely a core design goal.

You can always click the circle I’m the upper right.

You can just edit the buttons on the Touch Bar if you don't want Siri on it. Also, I don't see any change in behavior with the Touch Bar in Mojave. Touch drag works on both brightness and volume just like before.

I often want 1 or 2 increments more volume. With real keys I just tap up volume once or twice. With touch bar I have to carefully slide it one or two volume units.

Tap hold and slide for volume and brightness. It’s faster than the old keys.

It’s terrible compared to the old way.

You click the sound icon, then the slide opens up, then you can either slide it or click one of the two icons.

It’s probably quicker to change the volume from one to ten this way, but 99% of my use cases for changing volume is for one or two steps, for which the slider absolutely sucks.

It’s some of the worst design I’ve ever seen for volume control, and the old system is some of the best.

I don't think you're quite understanding the trick the parent comment is trying to tell you.

You press your finger on the sound icon, and just start sliding without waiting. It's one fluid gestural motion. Try it out. It takes the same effort as tapping a physical button but gives you more fine grained control. Yes, it's something new and different from the way you're used to, but give it a chance.

Sliding still does not a simple tap, with tactile feedback, equate.

I'm aware I can do this. It still drives me nuts - and I have to agree with eksemplar when I think it is simply a serious step backwards in design and should be an option, not forced like the 2018 models.

The lack of tactile feedback is huge.

Take a MacBook with the function keys, and one with the touchbar. Then adjust the brightness or volume on both at the same time and the hand that operates the touchbar gets “lost” so easily

Still more work than quickly tapping once or twice. With the slider I have to carefully slide to get the exact amount, all without any tactical feedback.

Tactile feedback? What for? You have visual and audio feedback. After all, you are trying to set volume or brightness to a specific level...

You can just tap and slide at once. (Without releasing your finger) Its actually faster than with old buttons.

How is tapping and sliding easier than pressing a button once?

You don't need to lift your finger, which takes time. Just shift your finger left/right a little bit.

But that’s not faster.

The old way: click, you’re done. The new way: click, hold finger, slide, and you’re done.

Like I said, it’s faster to go from 1 to 10, but 99% of the times I use it, I’m just changing the volume by 1.

Hell, it’s easier for my brain to just click 10 times than to watch where the damn slider is too.

Ah, you're comparing it to the old hardware keys. I see your point.

Anything is possible in the Reality Distortion Field.

Another alternative is to simply flick the touch bar button.

you don't need to click and wait though, just tap and without lifting your finger immediately slide to adjust. If anything it's a super minor annoyance imo.

That interaction is not at all obvious. I've used the 2017 since they came out and have been tapping then lifting my finger every time to drag the slider.

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