2015 pros: * Better battery life * Way better keyboard * More robust * More useful port selection * Trackpad is a more reasonable size
2018 pros: * Way better speakers * Slightly better screen * Lighter * Faster * Trackpad is not mechanical * Finger print login is useful
I'd really love a proper "pro" macbook pro, that sacrificed a bit of the thin-and-lightness for an actual professional level of stuff (better cooling, more ports, bigger battery, no touchbar)
I'd guesstimate I get at most 3 hours on the 2017 before the battery level gets low enough I have to start planning where I'll next plug in. Not ideal.
I suspect that Apple will be seeing a lot of 2015 MBPs brought in for battery replacements...
physics might have a word with you :)
When it was new i would regularly get ~12 hours of light usage from it (safari, email, terminal, VPN, citrix, remote desktop). It has been providing around 8-9 hours steadily for the past year or so. I finally noticed when placed flat on a table it wasn't sitting flat, and the battery was swollen.
Now with a new battery we're back to 12+ hours of light usage.
Nowadays, you can't even get a 15 inch MacBook Pro without a discreet GPU.
Add https://github.com/0xbb/gpu-switch - run the integrated gpu only - and you will never listen to a fan again, and prolong the life of your MPB.
I only use Chrome for development now.
I still prefer the 2015 Macbook Pros to the current release and that's just sad. How is it so easy for Apple to throw away so much good design research and implementation? They don't even have the mag-safe chargers, nor the the battery indicator lights on the chargers, what a step backwards on such simple but great functionality!
Furthermore I do agree with you on pretty much every point. I don't like my 2017 Macbook and I most certainly won't upgrade my 2015 to any new pro laptop.
I agree to most things, with the minor correction that the trackpad on the 2015 is also not mechanical (and works fine, I also like the size better).
Regarding the screen I observed: The 2017 has better colors. However it is far more of a dust and dirt magnet, and harder to clean. It seems like the coating or glass might be different, which allows more dust and grease to stick. As a result the display of my 2015 looks mostly clean, the 2017 is messed up as soon as I use it for two hours and have it in my backpack.
All in all I like the 2015 more. They should have just replaced the DisplayPort/TB2 connector with USB-C/TB3 and it would have been fine. The extra lightness of the 2017 is nice to have, but from a practical standpoint the form factor of the 2015 was already great.
More like MacBook Dev, imagine:
- Good keyboard, with Lenovo-like mouse clitoris
- Edges that aren't cutting your wrists off
- No touch bar and regular size trackpad (heck, I'll pay extra for this)
- 15" OLED screen for outdoors
- Figure out GPU. I do not want annoying GPU switching and beast of graphics card - I just enough to drive 5K screen.
- A USB port
- MacBook Air weight/size or insane battery life
- CPU with best single thread performance
- RAM up to 128GB or more
I've seen plenty of windows laptops with awful trackpads where I get it, but aren't they just a huge step back compared to a macbook trackpad?
This is probably just me, but when using my laptop on my lap, if I were using the trackpad i would have to bring my hands down closer to my body which is less comfortable, or move my laptop further away from me.
I have a thinkpad and am always curious on how to effectively use it. Even a video of someone using it might help.
Treat it as a tiny proportional joystick, which it is. I use index finger of dominant hand. Press hard and it'll fly the cursor across the screen. Press gently and it'll give excellent precision. If you keep overshooting, you haven't adjusted to gently enough. It is less movement and more thought for pixel perfect precision as you can barely feel any feedback but still get movement.
I always have to turn up acceleration, but rarely sensitivity, in Trackpoint settings a notch or two for my own preference. For me, if I turn sensitivity down, it ruins it. YMMV.
I will left, right and middle click with thumbs as they're just below space and land there naturally.
Thumb on middle and drag to scroll at pressure sensitive speed for as long as you press. No need to "reset" when you reach the end of trackpad or finger on scrollwheel. Two thumbs and index finger means select and paste are almost as fast as vi-only approaches, as it's placed so you're essentially still typing. :)
The thinkpad was the latest machine I got, after a string of macbooks and one XPS-15. I made a concerted effort to switch simply because I'm spoiled on OSX trackpads, and the thinkpad trackpad widget just isn't up to par (especially on ThinkPad + Linux). I asked a few colleagues how they got around the trackpad issue and a couple mentioned they just use the nipple cursor.
It's been a few months now. Changing over was really annoying at first. As the other poster mentioned - the key is learning muscle memory for _sensitivity_ to control the speed of the cursor. A light firm touch with a small pressure in the correct direction is all that's necessary for moderate speed.
I use my left index finger to control the cursor, and my left (spacebar) thumb to at the same time to click/drag/etc (as the mouse buttons are right below the spacebar).
Middle-click + drag-down for scrolling is really convenient.
I find myself having just crossed that midway point where the new system is becoming dominant. The trackpads are starting to feel somewhat unwieldy and cumbersome to me now - even the macbook ones when I use my wife's or friends'. It feels like they require too much hand movement, and are far more "gesticulatory" than gentle pushes and pulls on the nipple cursor.
I think I'm faster with the cursor now than with even high-quality trackpads.
If you do end up trying it out, be prepared to tweak settings a bit to get the right ones for you (and as the other replier mentioned - don't skimp on sensitivity), and be prepared to spend a couple weeks feeling like your hands are tied when you want to move the cursor around.
It gets better after that.
> It feels like they require too much hand movement, and are far more "gesticulatory" than gentle pushes
Well put. This encapsulates it well.
> I think I'm faster with the cursor now
When I'd got the hang of never overshooting and changing pressure to vary acceleration as I move around, trackpads, even Apple's, just start to feel cumbersome. Quite apart from the need to move hand away from the keyboard so you can't press keys at the same time. It's the thing I miss most on my Mac.
Oh, and just to address the parent's comment that a video might help. Probably not, as there's not much movement to see. Press an index finger on a desk or table and roll your finger around the pad - that's the extremes of movement you should expect with a trackpoint, assuming your finger didn't move on the table at all. :)
My laptop is a T450s, running Debian and KDE Plasma. Acceleration is set to medium, and "Adaptive". The key is tuning your sensitivity/accelaration so you can make very fine/slow movements, but also move the cursor all the way across the screen with stronger/faster ones.
However, extended use does induce tension in my wrist - hence I prefer not to play games on a laptop. The first thing I do when I get a new laptop with a trackpoint and a trackpad is disable the trackpad. If the glorious fruit company offered laptops with trackpoints, I'd do the same. I don't believe that a trackpoint is better than a trackpad in every conceivable way, but it does fit my way of using my devices far better than trackpads do. However, I also don't believe that there will ever be a trackpoint on a glorious fruit device - they don't allow for multiple ways of doing the same thing, and I'm very aware that most people do prefer trackpads to trackpoints. I just hope that my niche will be served by someone until I no longer want to use laptops.
Middle click scroll whilst still typing, as your fingers stay on the home keys. Precision and acceleration that's leagues ahead of every trackpad, including Apple, and faster than moving hand to a mouse. OK, I know quite a few seem to struggle with a trackpoint when first using by using actions that worked on their trackpad and other oddities. It's so long ago I forget my first encounters and learning curve.
I carry a small mouse around with the Macbook. When I have used Thinkpads I never carried a mouse and often didn't use the mouse at my desk either.
Only when I got my first thinkpad I could finally work without a mouse and haven't looked back since.
And yes, the mac ones are a bit better than the others, but I still don't like them. At all.
Not sure if that's possible on a Thinkpad but there was no obvious way on the HP running Ubuntu to do the equivalent of two finger touchpad scrolling.
FWIW I'm ok with trackpads too; I'm an engineer and all my jobs have given me an MBP for work. But like, I'm never pinching and zooming, keyboard shortcuts work just fine for paging and back/forward. Love I know gestures have been successful because keyboard shortcuts aren't intuitive, but to someone like me who uses them, gestures just seem like gimmicks for which we sacrifice smaller laptops and bigger keyboards.
Also FWIW I dislike naming things after genitals. I find it crude and vaguely misogynistic in this case, and wish people would stop.
Do you know how much physical space that would take? I highly doubt you’ll see it any time soon.
The better speakers I'd like. I still need to use USB sticks and SD pretty frequently and have always hated bags of adaptors. They always seem to break or get lost at the moment you're sitting with the important client.
The rest seems to come with a cost far worse than the benefit (for me anyway).
Larger trackpad was so large I would constantly get false activations when typing. Perhaps I have the wrong sort of fingers.
The touchbar was constantly activating when I typed on the top row of physical keys. Perhaps I have the wrong sort of fingers again. :)
The newer thinner keyboard was both horrible and horribly unreliable. Dust sensitive? LOL I think back to when the kids were little and throwing rusks, or putting toast in the VCR the moment we blinked. Then the amount of dog and cat hair (that magically gets everywhere) that's been removed from our keyboards over the years.
Lighter is OK, but not at a huge battery life cost compared to the 2015.
To be honest, I really love my rMBP 2014 hardware, it was basically perfect. Great speaker, as you say, good enough keyboard, BEST display, etc.
If Apple releases another MBP based on 2015 I'll take a quite good look again.
Of course it would be nicer if the laptop had better speakers in it, but there are always trade-offs to be made on cost vs benefit, and fairly cheap bluetooth speakers are a pretty good workaround for a lot of people.
What I'm trying to say is that if really good audio quality is important to you, then having a couple of sets of bluetooth speakers in your house strategically placed in the places where you'd regularly watch movies or consume other high-quality audio is a reasonable workaround for a lot of people. OF COURSE having better speakers (equivalent in sound quality to the bluetooth workaround) in your laptop would be better if you care a lot about audio quality. But that would add to the cost of the laptop for every user, even the ones that don't care about having really high-quality audio on their laptop. I'm saying that it's not unreasonable for a manufacturer to make some tradeoffs like that when there are workarounds that work fairly well.
Over time the costs of adding higher-end features like this drop, and things like audio quality improve to the point that the workarounds aren't needed (the audio quality of my phone speaker is actually pretty amazing).
- 6 cores (12 threads) was absolutely noticeable
- NVme disk performance is much faster
- 2nd generation butterfly keyboard is much improved
- Speakers are way louder, bassy, and crisp
- 15" screen is much better in terms of real-estate than 13"I really liked the 2017 to begin with.
My 2015 MBP has a force-touch trackpad. Is the 2018 one substantially different from that?
After just one year I tried to get more support and they said I’d have to send it in for three weeks which was impossible, I was using it every day. Onsite support was only for the first year, whereas apple stores you can just walk into
Finally the warranty ended and I decided to fix the damn thing myself. Was extremely careful and it was perfect for about a week, then the power somehow failed and it now refuses to turn on. Windows is also horrible for coding due to heavy file system use, fat threads and windows defender, let alone the constant privacy invasion. Was planning to install Ubuntu but figured if I ever did send it in it would just confuse them all the more
I finally got an MBP 2015, should have done it from the beginning.
I purchased the extended support once the warranty expires, so have another 2 or so years left on that.
One thing I love about the Dell vs the Macbook I had previously is that I can just download a service manual from https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/de/de/debsdt1/xps-13-93... if I want to service it myself.
Apple on the other hand will disable your computer if they detect that an unauthorized 3rd party has serviced it (if you bought a recent one with a T2 chip).
Hardware wise - it's most of the way to being a great laptop, but has a few aspects that seem "designed by committee". The 4K screen looks really nice, keyboard is pretty good, it's quite fast, battery life is good. But, the trackpad is massively irritating - it's constantly picking up the heel of my hands while typing and causing the cursor to jump and click. The webcam is terribly located, the TB16 dock is a piece of junk, speakers only sound OK if you're working on a hard surface. They still use a barrel connector for power - would've preferred to get power over USB-C (which the dock uses to provide power), and have a second USB-C port on the laptop.
There are several issues with Linux support - if you're successful making an XPS Hackintosh, then those won't be a problem, but I'd encourage getting the lower resolution screen if you're considering the Linux route.
Some hardware + distro combinations have certainly made that easier than others, but the general trend has been towards a good experience. Certainly there's been less headache with the average Linux desktop, than some Windows (plus whatever Antivirus that the IT higher-ups have mandated) machines I've had...
This particular laptop though, has highlighted the poor Linux support for "DPI Scaling" (a 15" 4K screen was the only option at the time), and touch screens. Combined with some questionable hardware design decisions (webcam, speakers), and some generally crap design (the TB16 dock) though, this whole package just isn't a purchase that I'm really happy about - and that's only partially about Linux. The touchpad might well be the sort of issue you describe, where a better driver could better adjust the sensitivity, but even there I'd look first at the vendor before blaming "the community".
It's a shame really, because as these MacBook Pro threads attest, there are a lot of folks looking for something that's totally feasible, but no manufacturer seems to be aiming at...
It is its own silo on Windows. Yes, it is native from an implementation standpoint, but does not play well (yet) with the rest of the Windows environment.
Install Visual Studio Code, the usual Windows version.
Explain to VS Code that it is really a good idea to use the Linux subsystem as its command-line environment. Not only interactive sessions like Bash on its integrated terminal, but also for git, compilers, Node, etc.
Once you have got that set up and your development workflow going ok, try setting up the same on Linux or macOS.
Which one would you prefer?
The Windows Subsystem for Linux is brilliant. PowerShell is brilliant. The dotNET universe can be brilliant.
I wish it was easy.
Hackintoshes tend to break (more specifically, the OS) with every OS update.
[1] For me issues were mostly interaction with random conference software and screen sharing (e.g. webex), or random hangs when connecting external displays (e.g. doing a presentation before CTO).
The 2018 model notebook is thinner but it suffers from problems as a result of this: No USB A port. The SD card slot was replaced by a Micro SD card slot. CPU heat management is also an issue. Finally, it has a smaller battery (52Wh instead of 60Wh, 13% less!). The display went from 3200x1800 to 4K which doesn't really make sense for a 13inch display anyway.
See https://www.notebookcheck.com/Editorial-Dell-XPS-13-9370-Sex... for details (German)
Personally, I find that difficult to touch type with. I'd rather have that as fn keys as it is on a mac.
On macOS closing the lid is suspends to sleep i.e. it keeps RAM powered only. On Fedora 29 (and every other Linux I've tried) it's the same.
The difference is that after some set amount of time macOS is smart enough to stop powering the RAM and suspend to SSD. That's not the case under Linux and instead the laptop just goes completely flat.
Anyone with any suggestions on that I'd love to hear it.
(I should add that I see the XPS 13 as a competitor to the old MacBook Air 11 but with a quad-core CPU and a bigger screen).
[0] https://jlk.fjfi.cvut.cz/arch/manpages/man/systemd-sleep.con...
I don’t really miss anything, especially not the weight or the keyboard.
The touchbar has never been of use to me though. It doesn’t annoy me much, but the user design for changing volume requires more clicks than the non touchbar, so it’s obviously terrible design.
I don’t miss any of the ports, I thought I would, but it’s not like there was an Ethernet port so I still needed a dongle for the 2015 version.
There’s certainly room for improvement, but the 512gb 13” version isn’t crazy expensive for what you’re getting compared to other laptops, at least not in my country.
You click the sound icon, then the slide opens up, then you can either slide it or click one of the two icons.
It’s probably quicker to change the volume from one to ten this way, but 99% of my use cases for changing volume is for one or two steps, for which the slider absolutely sucks.
It’s some of the worst design I’ve ever seen for volume control, and the old system is some of the best.
The old way: click, you’re done. The new way: click, hold finger, slide, and you’re done.
Like I said, it’s faster to go from 1 to 10, but 99% of the times I use it, I’m just changing the volume by 1.
Hell, it’s easier for my brain to just click 10 times than to watch where the damn slider is too.
You press your finger on the sound icon, and just start sliding without waiting. It's one fluid gestural motion. Try it out. It takes the same effort as tapping a physical button but gives you more fine grained control. Yes, it's something new and different from the way you're used to, but give it a chance.
I'm aware I can do this. It still drives me nuts - and I have to agree with eksemplar when I think it is simply a serious step backwards in design and should be an option, not forced like the 2018 models.
Take a MacBook with the function keys, and one with the touchbar. Then adjust the brightness or volume on both at the same time and the hand that operates the touchbar gets “lost” so easily
I definitely hate the touchbar, for the same reason. I just want the buttons I need to be there when I need them. Changing volume or screen brightness just takes that much longer and I have no tactile feedback, so I actually have to look at the keyboard instead of relying on muscle memory.
I mostly don't care about the ports, but I'd still rather not have to use dongles if I don't have to. Would it have been that hard to add one or two USB 3.0 ports? No, but then how would they sell $80 dongles?
It does seem silly not to include a dongle in the box though. I mean, I’m buying apple because I want my tech to just work, and now my mouse or magic keyboard can’t connect and charge?
The only real port annoyance I have though, is the damn headphone jack. :p I mean, I can’t connect my iPhone XS headphones to my MacBook Pro...
Did I miss the news about charging devices over bluetooth?
I have a keyboard and mouse at my desk. I plug them into my laptop when I'm working at my desk. I don't carry them with me at all times, though, and I don't know many people who've ever done that.
And then I never used it again.
Apple is moving more and more away from acura into mercedes car territory.
4k@60Hz. The MacBook Pro 2015 with Intel Iris (I don't know about the Radeon GPU) only supports 4k@30Hz, which is terrible.
(My wife has the 1st gen MacBook 12", which has the same downside.)
Are you using the HDMI port? I'm using a 2015 with Iris and can run 4k@60Hz through the mini-DP.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206587 shows that both 13" and 15" from 2015 should support 4k@60Hz.
The GPU must have a HDMI 2.0 output for 4k@60, and this is usually not present on all but the most recent laptops, producing the 30 Hz limitation.
On the other hand, DisplayPort 1.2 supports 4k@60. This is built into the Thunderbolt 2 ports on Macs, so as long as the GPU supports DP 1.2 it will work.
On my MBP (15"), the DP(Thunderbolt) + HDMI ports are wired directly to the Nvidia GPU. Parent mentioned his computer only had the Intel Iris graphics (13" model), which apparently can't do 4k@60 (so my previous comment was incorrect :( ).
I came across this while looking to see if I could buy a 4k display for my 12" Macbook (2nd gen.). My brief reading of it implied that it would be possible to drive it at 60hz. but maybe you are correct.
They are really cheap used or refurb
I also recently got a 2018 MBA to try replace my 2014 MBP but unfortunately my eyes suck so 13 inches is turning out to be an issue. It's not enough screen space to do my normal dev without having to be constantly opening and closing panes.
Examples would be trying to us VSCode with 2 panes and the project panel open. The 2 panes are two small so I have to keep opening and closing the project panel anytime I want to switch files.
Another example is trying to debug JavaScript I need both the page and the devtools visible and there just isn't enough screen real estate to do it comfortably.
Jacking up the scaled rez to 1680 mode I get my space back but my eyes aren't good enough to focus at that rez
It is also super notably slower than my 2014 MBP. As an example if I run pretty much any WebGL page and try to view a detailed PDF in another window in the browser it's practically unusable. My 2014 MBP had no issues multi-tasking.
Also connect it to a 30inch 4k monitor at my office and it just doesn't feel up do it. Just switching apps often takes long enough it feels super sluggish.
If Apple would get rid of the touch bar I'd have gotten the MBP again though am really loving the weight so really disappointed Apple can't match or beat LG in that.
For my home laptop, I'm finally getting around to replacing my mid-2009 MBP and decided to go with a Lenovo X1 Carbon Extreme. I'm so annoyed at Apple at this point that I figure it's time to go back and give Linux another shot.
I was a little worried about hardware support, so I bought a Dell laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed. Pretty much everything worked out of the box. But my friends tell me that the Linux experience is good with other laptops too.
(ed: spelling)
Why not just get a decent Windows laptop, if you want nice port selection? The X1 Carbon is incredible, while Dell, Microsoft, and more offer yet other options. If you truly love MagSafe, the Microsoft Surface series offers magnetic charge connectors, good displays, and regular USB.
If you wanted a laptop from 2014, there were plenty of ways to get one without paying Apple their premium price.
Any cons to using them like MagSafe?
- swap the SD port for UBC C (1 regular USB; 2 USB C) - move the microphone from the side next to the camera (when I'm talking to someone a slightest move makes loud noise for the other person) - round the front edge (next to the trackpad) - add 0.5mm "jump" ot the keys
If someone would make that with OS X or Ubuntu I'd buy it on the spot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G3#PowerBook_G3_Seri...
FaceID on the Mac would be a cool addition. Lighter would be nice.
It's already beyond the point of where "lighter would be nice". Now "lighter" only means "we'll take all the capabilities you care about and all the ports you need away".
I wish Apple stopped with their obsession on "lighter and thinner".
My personal MBP circa 2014 is still chugging along wonderfully and will probably continue to do so until Apple comes up with something better.
Took me all of 10min to swap out the HDD for an SSD and 2x2gb RAM for 2x8gb RAM (and cost about $100). Now I don't notice any difference for normal web development/light design work between the new and old machines.
Sure - the 2011 is a lot heavier and the screen is rubbish, but I love that keyboard and the trackpad is perfectly sized for me.
Besides, it’s not an excuse. Samsung can design a waterproof phone with headphone jack. Why can’t Apple?
As much I as a musician, who can't stand the unplayable latency of bluetooth headphones with any of my daily drivers, such as Garageband, and has invested in extremely high-quality headphones with cables, would take the headphone jack over a waterproof phone in a heartbeat; I have to say [citation needed]...
That's a bold statement to make. While I'd prefer a headphone jack, due to my particular use case, most of my friends have or have no problem with using wireless headphones, and many of them have also lost phones or other electronics to even a small amount of water in the wrong place.
Obviously this just anecdata but let me tell you that wireless headphones/earbuds have not even been a consideration for most people. Heck, even first world countries have lots of people still using wired earbuds for most use cases.
I heard lots of grumbling about the loss of headphone jacks. I never even once heard someone say "this is not waterproof? I won't buy it!"