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Comment by bouncingsoul | Hacker News Reader

I would feel kinda lame making 30+ people spend several hours working for me and then not paying them anything.

You aren't making anyone do anything. They choose to participate. If they think it's a bum deal, they don't have to do it.

What ARE they thinking, though? I mean, either they are not thinking, or they should think it is a bum deal?

Some alternatives come to mind, but none compelling in the long run:

- I need to practice anyway (but not in the long run, hopefully)

- I am the best and I will win (ok, maybe you deserve what you get)

- I want to be a designer, but nobody will pay me anyway, so at least I get to do my job for free (= ok, so it is a bum job, but I am a loser anyway, so I can't expect anything better).

it's like saying that it's retarded to enter a programming contest, which I disagree with

Yeah I do agree that it's best for people honing their skills and experience; and for people living in low-cost places where payment in high value currency is worth it (rentacoder, elance, ...). Hell maybe it's fun for some designers like programming is fun for some programmers. What's wrong with that?

I'm still really confused over what I perceive to be antagonism towards contests (unless you own a mom & pop design firm)...

Programming contest: yes, for students it is OK, that point I mentioned ("still need to practice"). After a while it becomes pointless.

"low-cost" places: well, if they want to continue living in low-cost places, sure. But in general, even if you come from a cheap country, why should you be forced to work for little money like that, instead of doing proper consulting?

Doing it for fun: sure, if you have the time... I just think it would probably be more fun to do the same thing for real money and a real assignment. What in the "contest" makes it more fun than working for the client directly?

But I think it's a bum deal. I may not directly be taking advantage of people, but I'm giving people an opportunity to be had. Which doesn't sit well with me.

I don't think you should look at it that way. There are a lot of people out there that would like to give it a go - some do it for fun, some try to get a portfolio together, and some are students trying to get better at what they do. There are many reasons for participating, and not all of them have dollars attached.

On the other hand, you're overpaying the winner. Because the winner would never rationally spend 5 hours on a $250 contest if he could get paid more than $50 an hour for a regular gig.

So the people that participate in 99designs should be the people that are undervalued in the marketplace, and 99designs helps to correct that.

I think that a couple hours of design practice could be valuable to a designer regardless of whether he wins the cash.

Practicing is always valuable. But if a company asks designers to "practice" for them on a commercial project they should compensate them.

Try inserting another profession into your sentence and see if it still sounds reasonable.

We have contests in our profession (programming/development) all the time, and we're still fine.

Here's one example from Google: http://code.google.com/android/adc.html

Here's one from Netflix: http://www.netflixprize.com/

The difference being instead of hours (or even days), programming contest submissions can take weeks or even months (and in some extreme cases - years) of work.

Engineers are subject to contests too: http://www.xprize.org/

They seem to be doing fine by me

> The difference being instead of hours (or even days), programming contest submissions can take weeks or even months (and in some extreme cases - years) of work.

You don't think the time spent on entries simply reflects the prize money involved? How much time would groups be putting into Netflix's contest if it was for a $250 prize?

Also notice how both Google and Netflix pay contestants along the way (Google giving $25,000 to fifty groups for completing the first phase, Netflix giving $50,000 each year to the group that makes the best improvement).

Those contests are legitimate contests. They are truly seeking creative and valuable entries. And they reward the winners with millions of dollars.

The "contests" at 99designs are just regular contract work where companies are trying to get as much labor for as little as possible.

you're right - but it sucks a lot harder to lose after spending weeks/months on something as opposed to a few hours.

these contests are the same as programming ones, the main difference being that the rewards and the time to complete a submission are lower

"Those contests are legitimate contests. They are truly seeking creative and valuable entries. "

So you're saying that creating a logo isn't creative and valuable to a company?

at the end of the day this is still about choice - something that you're ignoring

<tongueincheek>Yeah, that would be horrible if people spent their time on a creative endeavor with no real expectation of pay. I will immediately remove Linux, Firefox, Emacs, etc in favor of proprietary products so I can feel warm and fuzzy about everyone getting paid for everything they do.</tongueincheek>

People choose to participate in these contests choose to. They're not forced to, and designers with better economic options won't participate. Just like most of the people here look down on rentacoder, elance, etc because we have better options, while there are plenty of programmers who use those sites to get experience, a little cash, etc.

It's a business, and it gets customers, so it can't be all bad.

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