Hacker News Reader

Comment by diggan | Hacker News Reader

So how do you actually do this? Can you just open up Google Maps with OSM side-by-side and copy addresses? Or you need to source it from somewhere else?

View on HN

There are also nice tools like this: https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete

It's quite easy to use and if you don't plan to draw new roads this is the fastest way to fill gaps wherever you are.

The more advanced app would be this: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vespucci

Though I don't have experience with it.

Copying from Google Maps would violate copyright. Ideally you visit the place in question and correct them in OSM based on your observations. There are also some satellite maps that are licensed for use as OSM source (and that are often integrated in OSM editors)

Facts like street addresses are not copyrightable. The visual drawing of roads and other features on maps can be, however.

In the USA, yes there is clear precedent saying that. But other places (e.g. UK) don't have this case, so it's not so clear. EU law has created [sui generis] "database right", which is is like copyright for a collection of facts.

OSM is not a place to explore the grey areas of international copyright law.

> Facts like street addresses are not copyrightable.

Google says it is[0]. It might be true because when you get street address from Google, you are also getting the mark on the map for the location. Whether it's true legally or not, it's better to stay away from their data. That is, if you use Google maps, you agree their terms and thus you are not allowed to copy the data.

And btw, I have seen (possibly deliberate) mistakes in street address markers in Bing maps (which is the recommended map[1] to follow for Open street map editors). So don't think that they won't find you if you copy their data).

[0] https://developers.google.com/maps/terms#6-googles-proprieta... (The definition of Content is explained in the following section, which says "... and places data (including business listings). ")

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps

Bing Maps aren't recommended for use in OSM.

Microsoft has generously provided permission and server resources for use of Bing Aerial Imagery since 2010, but that's different than their map product.

Lately there's a bunch more imagery providers that give permission for use in OSM. Mapbox, Digital Globe and ESRI all provide imagery layers with global coverage. There's also quite some government imagery available, OSM editors will show them as an option in the areas they cover, so be sure to check when editing.

Violating T&Cs is not the same as copyright infringement. What you linked to are terms for the API, the Google Maps/Google Earth Additional Terms of Service [0] would be the more relevant document. But again, violating Google's Terms is not the same as copyright infringement.

I don't know whether Bing Maps uses trap streets [1] or not.

[0] https://www.google.com/intl/en_us/help/terms_maps.html

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street

An individual fact isn't copyrightable, a collection of facts can be. Details vary by jurisdiction, but in an international project like OSM you have to comply with the strictest jurisdiction

But the subject was an individual adding a street address for a route. That's not a collection of facts.

The address alone is a single fact, but its context on a map that allows it to be found is a collection of facts

As an OSM contributor in the UK myself and my peers only use clean-room data ( firsthand visit ) or data from public sources ( planning applications etc )

You need to source it from somewhere else, usually your own knowledge – go to places, photograph them, add them in OSM.

Despite what others might tell you, Google does not own addresses and associated information (opening hours, phone number etc.), so you’re free to copy them side-by-side. Uploaded photos are a no-go though.

Edit: for all people blindly ramming that downvote button, see my explanation below.

No, don't do this.

OpenStreetMap isn't an experiment in the legalities of copyrights, database rights and terms of service. Only use sources with clear provenance and clear permission.

Person A copies information on opening hours, the address, postal code, phone number etc. from the website (or even multiple sources) of a business onto Google Maps. Person B then copies this information from Google Maps to OpenStreetMap. The copyright either lies in the public domain or with the original website, not Google (Maps). This should be crystal clear and is in no way ‘an experiment’.

Okay, so now address the Google TOS (no extraction) and database rights.

Note that this is a FAQ:

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Lega...

At least there was this recently https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/01/ninth-circuit-doubles-...

Obviously that only covers one specific angle though.

The point here becomes that the original data source(s) are freely available and often unlicensed. Same example: the local bakery is not going to license their website information (or often the site is copyrighted by the creating company). You can copy this information to OSM. You can copy this information to Google Maps and OSM at the same time. Google cannot put this information under their license with a ‘no extraction’ rule because they don’t own that information. I get that OSM has to be cautious but no sane judge would ever rule in Google’s favor in this case.

After spending some time adding info to OSM, you'll start to see plenty of cases where Google and Yelp have info for an establishment that's nowhere to be found on their website. And even for some businesses that don't have a website at all. Some of it's extracted from their street view imagery, but some of it clearly isn't. I can walk by my local bakery and their phone number and hours aren't posted anywhere visible. Maybe they're on the takeout menu. Maybe a business card. Maybe they're printed on the receipt. Maybe you actually have to ask someone.

You can't assume that everything on Google Maps is from scanning public web sites. Sometimes, apparently, they do some actual investigation.

Plus, Google's not always right anyway! Nothing's more embarrassing than being caught copying incorrect information. So do your own research. Obviously copying info from a public website is fine, but info on the ground is going to be more complete and reliable. (Plenty of businesses are sloppy about updating their websites.)

Yes you can copy it into OSM from the original source. But not if it's gone through Google.

> Google cannot put this information under their license with a ‘no extraction’ rule because they don’t own that information.

So what prevents someone from extracting all of Google Maps' data to OSM?

> so you’re free to copy them side-by-side.

The OSM community will delete your contributions if you do this. And you risk being banned. Please don't bring copyright infringment into OSM

That is theoretically true in some jurisdictions, absolutely wrong in others, and completely untested in most.

Open Street Map specifically bans doing so, and if you’ve done any edits based on this, they should be reversed, as they threaten the legality of the entire project.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com