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Comment by aesh2Xa1 | Hacker News Reader

You can contribute better directions/addresses!

When a person is lost or misdirected, the priority is usually figuring out how to get where they wanted to go. Fixing the map is a low priority. Learning the complexities of the OSM API's and toolings is even lower. The process is complicated with many moving parts and tailored toward commercial level development not end map users. OSM, like any sophisticated database is complex and requires a substantial degree of technical commitment.

Adding a couple addresses using the editor built into the website should take 15-20 minutes (the first time, to register and do the walkthrough and such, just a couple minutes after that).

No need to muck directly with APIs and so on to make a quick contribution.

The structure of these projects is a long way from abstractions that deal with "Oh Shit, I'm lost and I'm late" well. The projects are largely inward focused and there's a lot of developers talking among themselves instead. The Open Street Maps page has no "Fix an Error" link. It has Help. Typing in an address and getting irrelevant data isn't a user error. It's a bug. Help is the wrong abstraction.

Gnome Maps is a layer of abstraction on top of that. Not only is there no "Fix an Error" link, there's no clear path for an end user reach the Beginner's page in the OSM Wiki explaining how to edit data.

Hear hear. When I'm on a computer I usually go to Google because if I go to OSM and type in a nearby major road, it gives me a list of addresses. And the one I want is probably thirtieth on the list and has a form that is obscure. If you can't search for street names in OSM, it shouln't let me try. Instead of giving me useless results, it should direct me to how I can obtain useful results.

"Commercial Road" - no relevant results in two pages.

"Commercial Road malvern" - no results at all. It turns out in Malvern, Commercial Rd is called Malvern Rd. It seems cruel that OSM requires me to tell it exactly what I'm searching for and to get it right. Giving related information to help the search doesn't help it find the location.

"Sydney Road" - no relevant results.

"Sydney Road brunswick" - finally, the first result is listed as "Sydney Road, Brunswick, City of Moreland, Greater Melbourne, Victoria, 3052, Australia", but it's death by too much information. (a) It's buried in a list of very similar results and I can't quite be sure the one I got is the one I want - this becomes a bigger problem with a minor street. (b) who cares that it's in the city of Moreland? If you're going to list the local administrative district name, why not also the state electoral division? Address are place names, and "City of Moreland" simply isn't a place name. It's the name of the territory controlled by the Moreland City Council, but it's not a placename. Combining (a) and (b), take a look at "Sydney Road, Sparta Place, Brunswick, City of Moreland, Greater Melbourne, Victoria, 3039, Australia". What's that even supposed to mean? I cry.

Google suffers the problem in the opposite way, normalising addresses to the most obscure and ambiguous form they could find, preferring road numbers to names, and using "Melbourne" instead of the suburb name. But at least it finds the place I'm after. OSM is barely useable. Not for want of data, but because it just doesn't care to tell me how to find what I'm looking for. It's exhausting. OSM is useless for practical purposes. I want to use it for a variety of reasons, but I can't.

The default search functionality on OSM ("reverse geocoding" in mapspeak) does, indeed, need a lot of improvement. It's actually a separate project called Nominatim[1]. It's on Github and you can browse the issues and see a lot of similar complaints.

It's a daunting problem, parsing a free text query that may be in any language and trying to best match it with addresses that are standardized a hundred different ways all over the globe. In its current state it isn't good enough for everyday use. It's annoying how often a Google Maps search sends me to the wrong state or even the wrong country. But with Nominatim it's almost a given.

This underscores one of the fundamental features/bugs of the OSM project: It's pretty good at attracting mappers, developers, and 3rd-party projects that use its data and APIs, but it's never really been designed to meet the needs of end users. UX, according to the classic OSM schema, is to be implemented by the various 3rd parties in whatever way suits them best. If someone wants to develop and host a Google Maps replacement using OSM data they're welcome to do it (and they can provide their own reverse geocoding solution if necessary) but that's not an immediate goal of OSM itself, according to the current leadership.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim

> The Open Street Maps page has no "Fix an Error" link.

If you right click on the map, or click the "add a note" button on the right hand side, you can add a note to the map describing a mistake. You don't need to be logged in

How do I right click on my phone? While a bit tongue in cheek, the assumption that I'm on a computer when using a map is about a decade past the tipping point. Ignoring that, while it's good to know adding notes is a possibility, the channel by which it is conveyed, a Hacker News comment hours later, is exactly why the absence of a "fix an error" button is so frustrating. Nobody outside the OSM community looking at "add a note" would know that it is a good way to record an error.

> How do I right click on my phone?

On osm.org on my Firefox on Android I can long press and get the same popup which allows me to "Add a note". There is also the button on the right hand side for adding a note.

> a Hacker News comment hours later

My apologies, I'm in Europe and timezones, eh?

> Nobody outside the OSM community looking at "add a note" would know that it is a good way to record an error.

Can you suggest a better wording? or icon? Or system?

FTR, when you click on "add a note to the map" you get text saying:

> Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so we can fix it. Move the marker to the correct position and type a note to explain the problem.

Better wording "Fix an Error".

Sure, but that's a funnel problem, not a problem with the level of learning required to do a basic contribution. Someone with a modest level of commitment will probably make it through the sign up and tutorial.

Apparently there's an issue where you think the beginner walk through should be better advertised outside of the sign up process?

The "funnel problem" manifests itself as a data problem. More importantly, the "funnel problem" is a social problem. A modest level of commitment to learning software is much more modest than a modest level of commitment to fixing software. Learning how to use open source mapping software is based on the immediate practical value of getting from A to B. Learning how to fix open source mapping software requires a different set of values, it requires a commitment to a philosophy/ideology/goal of arguable merit. I'm not arguing for or against it. Only pointing out that taking the moral high ground leads to the idea that signing up and working through a tutorial is a reasonable act by ordinary users when the alternative is Google Maps.

I honestly don't expect it of ordinary users.

I was explicitly pushing back against your depiction of contributing: Learning the complexities of the OSM API's and toolings is even lower. The process is complicated with many moving parts and tailored toward commercial level development not end map users. OSM, like any sophisticated database is complex and requires a substantial degree of technical commitment.

20 minutes for a moderately motivated person is worlds away from what you said.

Of course OSM would benefit greatly from further lowering the bar, but like you say, that's a lot of work.

Until you can do this from your phone it's kind of irrelevant. I am certainly the type to update an address database, but rarely the type to remember to do it when I get home.

There's a learning curve, but Vespucci is a full featured editor for Android. There's no full featured ios editor.

Maps.Me and OSMAnd will both edit POIs (for adding a shop or whatever).

Go Map!! (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Go_Map!!) is pretty good for iOS.

The parent comment was also complaining about the lack of public transport routing, and this is not something that you can fix easily, as far as I know: there is no software support for public transportation timetables/routing as far as I know.

(Edit: in fact there is work in progress about this in Gnome Maps https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-maps/issues/25)

I've tried fixing some obvious errors on OSM only to have my changes reverted. The project isn't exactly welcoming to new contributors.

I've never heard this before. My edits certainly aren't rejected, and aside from a few top contributors I doubt anyone recognizes usernames (so I nor others would have such bias). It's extremely rare that I have to undo some of someone's work because there are real mistakes.

Could you link the changeset perhaps? I'm curious now.

Could you please provide a link to the changes that you had made? This would be useful for OSM editors to understand what has gone wrong.

So how do you actually do this? Can you just open up Google Maps with OSM side-by-side and copy addresses? Or you need to source it from somewhere else?

You need to source it from somewhere else, usually your own knowledge – go to places, photograph them, add them in OSM.

Despite what others might tell you, Google does not own addresses and associated information (opening hours, phone number etc.), so you’re free to copy them side-by-side. Uploaded photos are a no-go though.

Edit: for all people blindly ramming that downvote button, see my explanation below.

No, don't do this.

OpenStreetMap isn't an experiment in the legalities of copyrights, database rights and terms of service. Only use sources with clear provenance and clear permission.

Person A copies information on opening hours, the address, postal code, phone number etc. from the website (or even multiple sources) of a business onto Google Maps. Person B then copies this information from Google Maps to OpenStreetMap. The copyright either lies in the public domain or with the original website, not Google (Maps). This should be crystal clear and is in no way ‘an experiment’.

Okay, so now address the Google TOS (no extraction) and database rights.

Note that this is a FAQ:

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Lega...

The point here becomes that the original data source(s) are freely available and often unlicensed. Same example: the local bakery is not going to license their website information (or often the site is copyrighted by the creating company). You can copy this information to OSM. You can copy this information to Google Maps and OSM at the same time. Google cannot put this information under their license with a ‘no extraction’ rule because they don’t own that information. I get that OSM has to be cautious but no sane judge would ever rule in Google’s favor in this case.

Yes you can copy it into OSM from the original source. But not if it's gone through Google.

> Google cannot put this information under their license with a ‘no extraction’ rule because they don’t own that information.

So what prevents someone from extracting all of Google Maps' data to OSM?

After spending some time adding info to OSM, you'll start to see plenty of cases where Google and Yelp have info for an establishment that's nowhere to be found on their website. And even for some businesses that don't have a website at all. Some of it's extracted from their street view imagery, but some of it clearly isn't. I can walk by my local bakery and their phone number and hours aren't posted anywhere visible. Maybe they're on the takeout menu. Maybe a business card. Maybe they're printed on the receipt. Maybe you actually have to ask someone.

You can't assume that everything on Google Maps is from scanning public web sites. Sometimes, apparently, they do some actual investigation.

Plus, Google's not always right anyway! Nothing's more embarrassing than being caught copying incorrect information. So do your own research. Obviously copying info from a public website is fine, but info on the ground is going to be more complete and reliable. (Plenty of businesses are sloppy about updating their websites.)

At least there was this recently https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/01/ninth-circuit-doubles-...

Obviously that only covers one specific angle though.

That is theoretically true in some jurisdictions, absolutely wrong in others, and completely untested in most.

Open Street Map specifically bans doing so, and if you’ve done any edits based on this, they should be reversed, as they threaten the legality of the entire project.

> so you’re free to copy them side-by-side.

The OSM community will delete your contributions if you do this. And you risk being banned. Please don't bring copyright infringment into OSM

Copying from Google Maps would violate copyright. Ideally you visit the place in question and correct them in OSM based on your observations. There are also some satellite maps that are licensed for use as OSM source (and that are often integrated in OSM editors)

Facts like street addresses are not copyrightable. The visual drawing of roads and other features on maps can be, however.

An individual fact isn't copyrightable, a collection of facts can be. Details vary by jurisdiction, but in an international project like OSM you have to comply with the strictest jurisdiction

But the subject was an individual adding a street address for a route. That's not a collection of facts.

The address alone is a single fact, but its context on a map that allows it to be found is a collection of facts

As an OSM contributor in the UK myself and my peers only use clean-room data ( firsthand visit ) or data from public sources ( planning applications etc )

> Facts like street addresses are not copyrightable.

Google says it is[0]. It might be true because when you get street address from Google, you are also getting the mark on the map for the location. Whether it's true legally or not, it's better to stay away from their data. That is, if you use Google maps, you agree their terms and thus you are not allowed to copy the data.

And btw, I have seen (possibly deliberate) mistakes in street address markers in Bing maps (which is the recommended map[1] to follow for Open street map editors). So don't think that they won't find you if you copy their data).

[0] https://developers.google.com/maps/terms#6-googles-proprieta... (The definition of Content is explained in the following section, which says "... and places data (including business listings). ")

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps

Bing Maps aren't recommended for use in OSM.

Microsoft has generously provided permission and server resources for use of Bing Aerial Imagery since 2010, but that's different than their map product.

Lately there's a bunch more imagery providers that give permission for use in OSM. Mapbox, Digital Globe and ESRI all provide imagery layers with global coverage. There's also quite some government imagery available, OSM editors will show them as an option in the areas they cover, so be sure to check when editing.

Violating T&Cs is not the same as copyright infringement. What you linked to are terms for the API, the Google Maps/Google Earth Additional Terms of Service [0] would be the more relevant document. But again, violating Google's Terms is not the same as copyright infringement.

I don't know whether Bing Maps uses trap streets [1] or not.

[0] https://www.google.com/intl/en_us/help/terms_maps.html

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street

In the USA, yes there is clear precedent saying that. But other places (e.g. UK) don't have this case, so it's not so clear. EU law has created [sui generis] "database right", which is is like copyright for a collection of facts.

OSM is not a place to explore the grey areas of international copyright law.

There are also nice tools like this: https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete

It's quite easy to use and if you don't plan to draw new roads this is the fastest way to fill gaps wherever you are.

The more advanced app would be this: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vespucci

Though I don't have experience with it.

I use the "Report an issue" feature with Apple Maps quite often, and I've noticed that they've become a lot faster with updating things. even things such as "pin in the wrong location." I've added new businesses and found them on the map just a few days later.

Apple Maps has improved so much. but it's only as good as the data it's fed.

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