Even from a layman’s perspective... have these people driven a 7 series? They’re more quiet highway cruising than the Model S I test drove... until you feel like making them noisy, then you can floor it and hear a V12 roar to life... if that’s your thing.
The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets slotted with cars solely on price
The last Model S I drove in was more like a Camry on some of the interior detailing.
Push down on the dash of a Tesla, listen to the creaking of flexing plastic. Do the same in a mid/high range Audi/MB/BMW.
Look at the gaps in trim detail on the door liner.
Give the center console a wiggle.
It's not -bad-, but it's not as polished, high quality, as some would like to believe.
I couldn’t stomach paying S Class money for the thing and went with a Volt, which is at least priced to match its trim (And it was a lot better than I expected when well optioned)
Having a huge 60kwh battery is great and all, but if I only use it 10% of the time, why would I want to pay another $10k for it? Better to just use gas occasionally. Love my Volt.
But they're confusing to people and also GM doesn't market either of these cars.
I don't think Canada has an EV sales requirement yet.
Ontario has a high subsidy.
To their credit, GM sells in all the provinces regardless. Once QC enacted California-style minimums, Ford stopped selling EVs in other provinces and allocated their inventory only to QC. That's a pretty dick move.
All of those vehicles have similar technology to the Tesla, if not more: road sign comprehension, active steering, driving assistance (autonomy), side collision avoidance, auto parking, online maps.
And when your market segmentation is "high end", "luxury" as it is here, why _wouldn't_ interior decoration, quality and features be considered?
(1) Actually a hugely refined and seriously complex process involving dozens of companies which have been doing this for decades, at least for the German ones.
I can imagine lots of cars:
One where the insides are junk, but they put all their effort into making the surface of the interior perfect
One where the interior is total crap, but they obsessed over the drivetrain until everything purred like a kitten
One where the whole thing is junk
One where every detail was obsessed over.
... which of these categories are you saying doesn't exist? Both of the first two?
Hence it is very important that manufacturers focus on the in car experience more so than exterior. And in this respect Tesla is pathetic. There really isn't a better word to describe how Tesla can offer cheap-Korean interior quality at the prices they do.
I'm not supposed to disagree with your opinion that "the singular difference in many respects is the lack of ICE"?
I mean, I've always been aware that many people don't like Tesla's interiors, and don't place much value in the things that Tesla owners place value in. Heck, I'm sure a majority of people don't agree with my opinions.
But I wasn't aware until now that my opinion was invalid.
If you'd like to know what I, personally, find awesome about Model S, it's the quiet straight-line acceleration, the modernistic interior design, and that it doesn't burn dinosaur juice. (I know people dispute all of these, but those are my personal favorites.)
Both of these things certainly could be done by other car companies.
Opinions and value systems obviously differ. I've been a professional driver on and off for years and years, and I honestly couldn't care less about the finish of the dashboard, as long as it performs whatever it's supposed to perform.
My personal only reason, apart from the money, which I haven't got, for not wanting a Tesla (or any other modern high-end car, really) would be all the idiotic phoning home stuff.
The electric versus dead dinasaur question is settled beyond dispute. Combustion is twentieth century, period.
Yes. Yes that is a controversial opinion, especially when combined with the phrasing you continue to choose. And the fact that you're this hostile but then admit you don't own one and can't afford to own one, yet you look down your nose at anyone who doesn't own one.
As for the supposed hostility, I'll let other judge between you and me.
With that said, I do think it's interesting that the Model S has S class pricing and is outselling the S class despite being decidedly much less luxurious.
I'd say many people spending upwards of $85k-$100k+ on a car don't just want luxury -- they want social status. And right now a brand new upgraded Model S is more attention-grabbing than a Mercedes S class.
We'll see if that trend continues in 2018, there have been some substantial changes in the taxes regarding electrical cars in NL, not sure about Norway.
If you want complete luxury: S-Class, A7/A8, or 7-Series are going to be decidedly better in every way, at a similar price bracket. To be honest, Tesla doesn't even compete in this category.
If you want the status symbol: Maybe Tesla is the best. You'd also probably be cross-shopping a Panamera or maybe an XJ.
If you want performance: The best will be an E63S, RS5 (kind of a different category), or M5. A P100D is stupidly fast off the line, but most enthusiasts don't put it in the same class as high-end german performance cars due to driving dynamics and the price. It gets an honorable mention.
If you want tech: Tesla, Audi, or the Cadillac CT6. Tesla wins on automated driving, but Cadillac isn't far behind at all. Audi has some of that, but their interior tech is easily on-par with Tesla when you option it out.
If you want all of them: You'll need to go upmarket. The RS7 would qualify, especially the refreshed 2019 model, but really you'll have to enter "optioned out Porsche" territory ($150k+) and even then you'll make sacrifices in the tech department.
There are a few generalities you can make, though: First, BMW isn't as competitive as they used to be. MB and Audi have recently started outpacing them in most categories. Second, Tesla definitely isn't competitive at its price bracket without tax incentives, unless all you care about is how other people perceive you, which can't really be quantified like the other categories.
For realsies? Or is it just a soundtrack?
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/faking-it-engine-sound...
A 7 series might be insulated enough that the models that come with V6 and V8s need some artificial help, but the V12 is loud enough that any generated sounds are just overkill, it’s a very throaty engine... if you want it to be
It starts off like it’s talking about fake sounds, then goes into differentiating. The comment the person linking made sounds like they were slightly mislead by that.
I can totally see how this will eventually play out the way you describe it though, and worse, maybe they'll end up putting speakers on the outside as well.
No, that is not strange at all.
It is less quality that makes it strange than dimensions of the vehicles. Tesla is not the length of an S Class or 7 series. It is the length of an E Class or 5 series.
5 series, E Class, Model S are ~ 195 inches long
7 series and S Class are ~206 inches long.
Price is a far more significant from of differentiation than random specs. The average person buying a Honda Civic can't afford a Model S, but the average person buying a Model S can afford to buy an S Class. People talk about market segments because they are meaningfully different.
That said, taxes, maintenance, and fuel differences do make a Model S cheaper to own and operate. So they arguably have significantly different prices.
I think what we're both saying is that the big gas-engine luxury car segment is different from whatever new segment the Tesla Model S has created.
But the point is that the new segment is taking buyers from the old.
Have you seen a good direct comparison?
I'm sure that the cars that BMW cranked out in its third year of production weren't the same as today's BMW's, either.
When Tesla's been doing this for a decade, then I'll hold their feet a little closer to the fire. For right now, it's a company learning how to build cars; and from that perspective, it seems to be doing a pretty good job.
Also Tesla has, in fact, been producing vehicles for a decade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(2008)
If you prefer not to count the Roadster as they used the Lotus gliders, the Model S has been out for 6 years as of this summer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S
Tesla does not have many of the “luxuries” that BMW has, but it has other benefits like better technology and 0 emissions. The news is that faced with that choice, many consumers are choosing Tesla over a 7 series and it’s quiet cabin.
What they really appreciate on a day to day basis is quiet cruising, yet the 7 series out does it in that department.
I'm totally OK with you having different preferences from me. I've met other people who think like you do, and we've had fine conversations about our personal preferences. But you're pretty much ignoring what I have to say, replacing it with your favorite preferences.
I think you're just so set in the idea that an EV must be quieter than ICE vehicle because people who bought one want a quiet car and you’re either willing to shift goalposts to do that or you’ve been talking past me. After all:
>I'm mainly concerned with people outside the car.
the conversation has been about interior noise this up til now.
And before when I mentioned flooring it, you responded, I responded saying both are fairly loud when floored, then you then turned around and said you weren’t talking about foooring it...
There’s not much of a conversation to be had if any time I bring up a point you try and write it off by changing the context of it, then turn around and accuse me of ignoring what you’re saying...
And for the record the noise in the Model S noise isn’t just tire noise, there’s the whine of the motors straining and the excessive-for-it’s-price-bracket wind noise
And I was flooring it, just not to 60. Which is what I said.
I live in downtown Palo Alto, and I hear Model S flooring it from the outside and inside on a regular basis. It's subtle compared to ICE cars.
Looks like we'll both end up mystified as to what the other is saying. So be it.
But to get back to my original point: If you talk to Tesla owners, they're into flooring it and not making a roar. Not a wind roar, not a small engine wine, but a roar of a gas engine causing breakthrough noise.