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Comment by jacquesm | Hacker News Reader

Guess what? More Teslas are being sold than Ferrari's as well. This is an apples-to-oranges comparison, every German brand that sells cars in this segment outsells Tesla 5:1 or more.

Sales for 2017:

Tesla Model S: < 20K BMW 5 series: 109K MB E-class: 125K

Note that the EU tax situation for vehicles is very complicated and can cause the price to change so much that a Tesla model S can be much cheaper, about equal or more expensive to a BMW 5 series or E class depending on the country you are looking at.

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I have no idea why the Model S sales numbers are being compared to cars like the 7 series by laypeople too.

Even from a layman’s perspective... have these people driven a 7 series? They’re more quiet highway cruising than the Model S I test drove... until you feel like making them noisy, then you can floor it and hear a V12 roar to life... if that’s your thing.

The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets slotted with cars solely on price

> The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets slotted with cars solely on price

The last Model S I drove in was more like a Camry on some of the interior detailing.

Push down on the dash of a Tesla, listen to the creaking of flexing plastic. Do the same in a mid/high range Audi/MB/BMW.

Look at the gaps in trim detail on the door liner.

Give the center console a wiggle.

It's not -bad-, but it's not as polished, high quality, as some would like to believe.

I was being very forgiving and including size in that comparison.

I couldn’t stomach paying S Class money for the thing and went with a Volt, which is at least priced to match its trim (And it was a lot better than I expected when well optioned)

Yep and I bet 90% of the time you don't go beyond the battery range and drive it like it's an electric anyways.

Having a huge 60kwh battery is great and all, but if I only use it 10% of the time, why would I want to pay another $10k for it? Better to just use gas occasionally. Love my Volt.

You might note that Bolt sells better than the Volt -- a surprise to me, but in general plug-in hybrids just aren't that popular with the car-buying public.

Only in the US. In Canada the Volt continued to outsell the Bolt all year. Then again, with supply limited it's hard to make any kind of analysis.

But they're confusing to people and also GM doesn't market either of these cars.

GM gets valuable EV credits for selling Volt/Bolt in California and all of the other US states in the club. Not surprisingly, they stock and market both cars more in those states.

I don't think Canada has an EV sales requirement yet.

Quebec does.

Ontario has a high subsidy.

To their credit, GM sells in all the provinces regardless. Once QC enacted California-style minimums, Ford stopped selling EVs in other provinces and allocated their inventory only to QC. That's a pretty dick move.

Yeah, it was similar in the US, in the sense that GM released Bolt first in California, then the other states with the EV requirement, and then at the end released them in other states at the same price. That last part was a pleasant surprise, because apparently GM loses money on every Bolt, and loses even more money when they sell Bolts in states without the EV requirement.

Interior decoration is a somewhat strange criterion to apply in the choice between contemporary technology and dinosaur ditto.

When you consider that the primary difference is ICE vs Electric, that's about where your "dinosaur" analogy ends.

All of those vehicles have similar technology to the Tesla, if not more: road sign comprehension, active steering, driving assistance (autonomy), side collision avoidance, auto parking, online maps.

And when your market segmentation is "high end", "luxury" as it is here, why _wouldn't_ interior decoration, quality and features be considered?

You're looking at gaps and clearances not necessarily because you don't want your car to continually insult your eyes, but rather to gauge the manufacturers ability to build things. If a car manufacturer can't get something as simple(1) as the clearance of doors right, how in the world would you trust them to get any of the more critical aspects right?!

(1) Actually a hugely refined and seriously complex process involving dozens of companies which have been doing this for decades, at least for the German ones.

> If a car manufacturer can't get something as simple(1) as the clearance of doors right, how in the world would you trust them to get any of the more critical aspects right?!

I can imagine lots of cars:

One where the insides are junk, but they put all their effort into making the surface of the interior perfect

One where the interior is total crap, but they obsessed over the drivetrain until everything purred like a kitten

One where the whole thing is junk

One where every detail was obsessed over.

... which of these categories are you saying doesn't exist? Both of the first two?

100% of the time spend driving is inside the car.

Hence it is very important that manufacturers focus on the in car experience more so than exterior. And in this respect Tesla is pathetic. There really isn't a better word to describe how Tesla can offer cheap-Korean interior quality at the prices they do.

Is it possible that Tesla buyers aren't as concerned with the interior as you are?

No-one's saying they have to be. Just that you can't really claim with a straight face "Oh, it competes with German luxury flagships and wins... if you aren't concerned with interiors" (or ignore that most of the tech is similar, and really that the singular difference in many respects is the lack of ICE).

I can't really claim that I like what I like?

I'm not supposed to disagree with your opinion that "the singular difference in many respects is the lack of ICE"?

I mean, I've always been aware that many people don't like Tesla's interiors, and don't place much value in the things that Tesla owners place value in. Heck, I'm sure a majority of people don't agree with my opinions.

But I wasn't aware until now that my opinion was invalid.

Your opinion isn't invalid. But what are some of these other differences that make Tesla "contemporary" and 7 series, S class, A8Ls "dinosaurs"?

That's easy to answer: I didn't say either.

If you'd like to know what I, personally, find awesome about Model S, it's the quiet straight-line acceleration, the modernistic interior design, and that it doesn't burn dinosaur juice. (I know people dispute all of these, but those are my personal favorites.)

What car would you point to that has all of the software and robotics features of the Model X, except the electric drivetrain?

I'm not an expert on the whole car market, but I don't think any other car has a huge touchscreen, and the modernist/minimalist interior is also unusual. If you recall earlier discussions of this car, lots of people don't like either.

Both of these things certainly could be done by other car companies.

Thanks for all the downvotes; I seem to have hit a raw nerve here.

Opinions and value systems obviously differ. I've been a professional driver on and off for years and years, and I honestly couldn't care less about the finish of the dashboard, as long as it performs whatever it's supposed to perform.

My personal only reason, apart from the money, which I haven't got, for not wanting a Tesla (or any other modern high-end car, really) would be all the idiotic phoning home stuff.

The electric versus dead dinasaur question is settled beyond dispute. Combustion is twentieth century, period.

What you're saying is you would take any electric car, no matter how poorly built, no matter how expensive, over a cheaper, higher quality gasoline-powered car. And not only that, but you'd take that expensive and poorly-built electric car over cheaper electric cars with similar build quality just because of a brand name.

Yes. Yes that is a controversial opinion, especially when combined with the phrasing you continue to choose. And the fact that you're this hostile but then admit you don't own one and can't afford to own one, yet you look down your nose at anyone who doesn't own one.

No idea whose nose I'm supposed to be looking down. I simple consider combustion engines outdated technology. I'm leaving it behind whenever electric begins to match my finansial range.

As for the supposed hostility, I'll let other judge between you and me.

First of all, I completely agree that the E class is more on par with the Model S, and the S class is significantly more luxurious.

With that said, I do think it's interesting that the Model S has S class pricing and is outselling the S class despite being decidedly much less luxurious.

I'd say many people spending upwards of $85k-$100k+ on a car don't just want luxury -- they want social status. And right now a brand new upgraded Model S is more attention-grabbing than a Mercedes S class.

Really, Price is the only thing you can compare.

If you want complete luxury: S-Class, A7/A8, or 7-Series are going to be decidedly better in every way, at a similar price bracket. To be honest, Tesla doesn't even compete in this category.

If you want the status symbol: Maybe Tesla is the best. You'd also probably be cross-shopping a Panamera or maybe an XJ.

If you want performance: The best will be an E63S, RS5 (kind of a different category), or M5. A P100D is stupidly fast off the line, but most enthusiasts don't put it in the same class as high-end german performance cars due to driving dynamics and the price. It gets an honorable mention.

If you want tech: Tesla, Audi, or the Cadillac CT6. Tesla wins on automated driving, but Cadillac isn't far behind at all. Audi has some of that, but their interior tech is easily on-par with Tesla when you option it out.

If you want all of them: You'll need to go upmarket. The RS7 would qualify, especially the refreshed 2019 model, but really you'll have to enter "optioned out Porsche" territory ($150k+) and even then you'll make sacrifices in the tech department.

There are a few generalities you can make, though: First, BMW isn't as competitive as they used to be. MB and Audi have recently started outpacing them in most categories. Second, Tesla definitely isn't competitive at its price bracket without tax incentives, unless all you care about is how other people perceive you, which can't really be quantified like the other categories.

It's mostly a tax issue. The operating costs of a Tesla can be much lower because of very favorable tax breaks, which is one of the main reasons the Tesla sold so well in Norway and The Netherlands (my home country), and why so many of them are fleet (lease) vehicles. Taxis alone account for a substantial fraction of all those sales.

We'll see if that trend continues in 2018, there have been some substantial changes in the taxes regarding electrical cars in NL, not sure about Norway.

I didn't fully appreciate the significance of that point at first but now I think I do. It appears that in Norway in particular a Model S can be significantly cheaper than a 7 series or S class.

Most definitely in Norway, Model S is significantly cheaper than E-class or 5-series, too.

It's probably just the novelty / cool factor. People buy Teslas mostly as a second car, while that's probably a rare thing to do with an S-class Merc.

> then you can floor it and hear a V12 roar to life

For realsies? Or is it just a soundtrack?

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/faking-it-engine-sound...

According to your link it is the actual engine but played over the stereo. As if the car doesn't have windows :)

I can totally see how this will eventually play out the way you describe it though, and worse, maybe they'll end up putting speakers on the outside as well.

The article confuses two things, fake noises generated by speakers, and real noises tuned/directed into specific parts of the cabin.

A 7 series might be insulated enough that the models that come with V6 and V8s need some artificial help, but the V12 is loud enough that any generated sounds are just overkill, it’s a very throaty engine... if you want it to be

The article doesn't seem to confuse them. It literally explains the approaches used on the models they covered.

When I say the article I’m specifically referring to the title and some language at the start.

It starts off like it’s talking about fake sounds, then goes into differentiating. The comment the person linking made sounds like they were slightly mislead by that.

> The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets slotted with cars solely on price

No, that is not strange at all.

> No, that is not strange at all.

It is less quality that makes it strange than dimensions of the vehicles. Tesla is not the length of an S Class or 7 series. It is the length of an E Class or 5 series.

5 series, E Class, Model S are ~ 195 inches long

7 series and S Class are ~206 inches long.

No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.

Price is a far more significant from of differentiation than random specs. The average person buying a Honda Civic can't afford a Model S, but the average person buying a Model S can afford to buy an S Class. People talk about market segments because they are meaningfully different.

That said, taxes, maintenance, and fuel differences do make a Model S cheaper to own and operate. So they arguably have significantly different prices.

They have significantly different prices to produce, as well. The all-electric drivetrain costs less than an AMG supercharged V12. The BMW and the Mercedes have the same costs, so you can directly compare then, but the Model S does not.

I think what we're both saying is that the big gas-engine luxury car segment is different from whatever new segment the Tesla Model S has created.

But the point is that the new segment is taking buyers from the old.

I don't know. Battery costs are currently massive, so Model S might cost more to manufacture. R&D and advertising also make the direct profit comparisons tricky.

Have you seen a good direct comparison?

I'm a little more forgiving than most on HN.

I'm sure that the cars that BMW cranked out in its third year of production weren't the same as today's BMW's, either.

When Tesla's been doing this for a decade, then I'll hold their feet a little closer to the fire. For right now, it's a company learning how to build cars; and from that perspective, it seems to be doing a pretty good job.

I can certainly understand the challenges that a new entrant in a field like car manufacturing faces, and I agree that Tesla has generally done a good job. However, for a general consumer who isn't buying a product to support the mission/company/tech or whatever you want to call it, it's less clear why they would care about that. If <legacy manufacturer> and Tesla both produce cars for $X, it's not unreasonable to do a direct comparison, certainly including reliability, QA, etc. when deciding who earns that $X.

Also Tesla has, in fact, been producing vehicles for a decade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(2008)

If you prefer not to count the Roadster as they used the Lotus gliders, the Model S has been out for 6 years as of this summer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S

Honestly, it feels more like an A4 or 3-series in quality based on US trims of these cars. It certainly wasn't more luxurious than a C-class.

It’s being compared to cars in the same size class. Typically people who are buying the Model S would have bought a 7 series or S class, not a 5 or an E. it’s a very expensive car. Similarly Model 3 should be compared to BMW 3 series and Mercedes E class as those are the products a different consumer might be choosing between. It’s not really meaningful to compare sales between cars with dramatically different pricing because the price obviously affects demand.

Tesla does not have many of the “luxuries” that BMW has, but it has other benefits like better technology and 0 emissions. The news is that faced with that choice, many consumers are choosing Tesla over a 7 series and it’s quiet cabin.

If you talk to Tesla owners, you'll find that their thing is flooring it and NOT making a roar.

Flooring any car from 0 to 60 in 3.6 seconds will be loud. The ludicrous mode launch we did wasn’t silent either.

What they really appreciate on a day to day basis is quiet cruising, yet the 7 series out does it in that department.

I was actually referring to starts from stop signs and stop lights where you don't get near to 60mph. Also, tire noise (poorly damped from inside a Tesla, admittedly) is quite different from engine roar (damped or not.) From talking to other Tesla owners, I'm expressing a fairly common sentiment.

For normal starts the 7 series is quieter than the Model S for total noise so I didn’t think it was worth bringing up.

I'm mainly concerned with people outside the car. Also, breakthrough noise is completely different from tire noise, which is why it's called "breakthrough noise". Did you not notice that I said "roar"? Do tires "roar" when they aren't skidding? No. ICE's "roar".

I'm totally OK with you having different preferences from me. I've met other people who think like you do, and we've had fine conversations about our personal preferences. But you're pretty much ignoring what I have to say, replacing it with your favorite preferences.

I have a Volt, I didn’t say my preference was a V12 or always a sporty car.

I think you're just so set in the idea that an EV must be quieter than ICE vehicle because people who bought one want a quiet car and you’re either willing to shift goalposts to do that or you’ve been talking past me. After all:

>I'm mainly concerned with people outside the car.

the conversation has been about interior noise this up til now.

And before when I mentioned flooring it, you responded, I responded saying both are fairly loud when floored, then you then turned around and said you weren’t talking about foooring it...

There’s not much of a conversation to be had if any time I bring up a point you try and write it off by changing the context of it, then turn around and accuse me of ignoring what you’re saying...

And for the record the noise in the Model S noise isn’t just tire noise, there’s the whine of the motors straining and the excessive-for-it’s-price-bracket wind noise

I was actually concerned about exterior noise the entire time, while trying to be inclusive of your comments. But yet mystified about the "roar" you keep mentioning -- ok, now a whine and wind whistle.

And I was flooring it, just not to 60. Which is what I said.

I live in downtown Palo Alto, and I hear Model S flooring it from the outside and inside on a regular basis. It's subtle compared to ICE cars.

Looks like we'll both end up mystified as to what the other is saying. So be it.

But to get back to my original point: If you talk to Tesla owners, they're into flooring it and not making a roar. Not a wind roar, not a small engine wine, but a roar of a gas engine causing breakthrough noise.

they being compared because they fall into a similar price range. 100K for a Model S, is higher than the vast majority of 5s and E klasse

Will you sell me a new base model Ferrari for ~$75k?

Pretty please

What's the average selling price of the BMW 5 versus the Tesla S?

The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper. You reference that and claim an exception based on taxes but don't provide any actual information to clarify it.

Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all. In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting. So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW. The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al.

The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers.

> What's the average selling price of the BMW 5 versus the Tesla S?

The average price doesn't matter. The actual price matters and this differs from country to country to such an extent that it will be a large factor in the decision making process. For 2017 NL and Norway for instance were big sellers for Tesla because of huge tax breaks on purchase and subsequent ownership taxes.

> The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper.

In NL they start at 56K Euros, the Tesla's at 90K+, but the tax situation is so convoluted that you can't even compare the two at that price point. Which is why you'll see plenty of Tesla's in lease fleets because the monthly figures on that very expensive car compare favorable with the 5 series.

> Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all.

Yes, this is usually the case when companies start out. BMW is just over a century old, if they would be growing at the rate of Tesla they'd be the only manufacturer by now. Just like any new company Tesla will - hopefully - continue to grow for quite a few years but it is my expectation that that growth will plateau at some point in the next couple of years.

> In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting.

See above for comparison between mature market players and start-ups. This is expected, there is a new equilibrium to be found and all existing market players will lose some market to a newcomer operating in their segment.

If that would not happen it would indicate that the market as a whole is growing which is not the main driver here.

> So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW.

No, you have to divide that over all the competing vehicle brands to figure out how much it affects them. And even though the 30K vehicles sold is impressive it's for now not at the level that the likes of BMW and MB are having end-times nightmares.

> The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al.

Exactly. But until those numbers reach 100's of thousands of vehicles sold Tesla will be the underdog, and by that point the likes of BMW and MB (and possibly VW) will have a competing product. There is no way that Tesla will be able to absorb the whole car industry without the competition putting up a stiff fight, the way it is playing out right now is that Tesla is taking all the risks and laying the groundwork for electric car acceptance and infrastructure issues. It's a real world example of the innovators dilemma at work and it remains to be seen if the incumbents wake up in time to win that fight.

> The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers.

No, they are coming at the expense of all automakers, maybe with a larger chunk coming out of the German automakers but that's not something that you can say without more proof than I have available right now, what I do know is that both the E class and the 5 series set records in the US in 2017, with both cars individually growing in sales as much as the total number of sales for the Model S.

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