Hacker News Reader

Comment by ravenstine | Hacker News Reader

I'm getting pretty tired of Rick and Morty fans blowing the greatness of the show way out of proportion. I love the show, but not because it's "smart" or "nihilistic' or because it references science. It's a zany cartoon with witty dialog, and it's hilarious, but to claim it's more profound than that has so far proven to be little more than reading too far into it. Referencing pop culture isn't "smart" in and of itself, and it doesn't require extraordinary intelligence to recognize.

By the way, Rick is not a nihilist. He might be very careless and ambivalent, but that doesn't translate to any form of nihilism I'm aware of; in the case of the show, he's definitely not en existential nihilist, and it's arguable that he's not even a moral nihilist. The rest of the characters on the show are not nihilists; myopic would be a more accurate description. You want a really nihilistic show? Watch Seinfeld.

View on HN

To further your point, if Rick was an "ist" he would be an absurdist. And historically speaking absurdists like Camus have been against the concept of nihilism because usually nihilists still try to find some internal meaning in life (something that absurdists rail against). To quote Camus (The Myth of Sisyphus):

> [Nihilists] deify what crushes them and find reason to hope in what impoverishes them.

If we had to label him he would definitely be a hedonist.

I think Rick and Morty resonates with people who are struggling with the disillusionments of adolescence: that you aren't as unique or special as you thought, that your parents have problems and concerns that have nothing to do with you, that you're just a lump of matter, and that how people value and treat you is influenced by your practical value to them.

It resonates even more with people who would prefer those issues be brought front and center, people who dream of achieving social acceptance but can't swallow the apparent disregard for larger issues that casual society demands. That the powerful and confident Rick openly addresses their fears is validating; that he manages to be blasé about them is reassuring. They are tired of feeling weak next to their peers who seem strong (or, preferably, stupid) enough to work at forging confident and polished versions of themselves that aren't marred by of the horribleness of the world. Rick provides an alternative model of strength that includes adolescent disillusionments front and center instead of sweeping them under the rug; Morty to Rick presents an alternative route to competent adulthood.

And of course it seems "nihilistic" to them even though it is nothing of the sort. Nihilism is a natural fascination for socially isolated adolescents, because they feel all of their illusions being stripped away and wonder what will be left when the illusions are gone. (Adolescents who feel socially connected don't feel a gaping nothing waiting to swallow them up when when their childhood illusions are gone. That's why some kids are able to gloss over it as an occasional terror, while it feels like an essential aspect of reality to others.) "Rick and Morty" is leading them along, season by season, to the discovery that there is something left, and, like math, you don't understand it so much as get used to it. The more weird and amazing things you learn, the more you learn that you are going to have an ordinary life even if you also have an extraordinary one, and to go one step further into painful territory, even if you don't.

> You want a really nihilistic show? Watch Seinfeld.

Eh? Do you mean nihilist in the (meta) sense that the show "is about nothing" and has no inherent meaning? Because none of the characters on Seinfeld strike me as nihilist either.

That's not to say I disagree with your point about Rick and Morty having nihilist characters; I don't think Rick is a nihilist, but I also don't think nihilism translates well to film and television. It's difficult to maintain compelling character development that can bring in a large viewership if a character is truly nihilist, in my opinion.

For my purposes I don't believe it's enough to have a character profess adherence to existential nihilism - I don't agree a character is nihilist unless they also act like it, and that is fundamentally difficult to do convincingly. I very often see writers use stoicism, ruthless utilitarianism, (dysfunctional) cynicism and even atheism as proxies to demonstrate a character is nihilistic, but none of those really hits it on the mark. I consider it like free will: you can make extremely compelling arguments that free will (in the sense of the capacity for non-deterministic decision making) simply doesn't exist (or is at best implausible), but there's not really a convincing framework for altering your behavior even if you claim to believe that. This is unlike atheism or agnosticism, which do have clear behavioral proxies when you abstract them away from considerations of intrinsic meaning - simply don't participate in religious communities, gatherings or activities for its own sake.

No, they mean the characters. Virtually every character on Seinfeld is a nihilist. Nobody on Seinfeld --- with the possible exception of Jerry's parents --- cares about anybody or anything. Susan dies from licking poisonous envelopes and they all go out for coffee before George tries to hit on Marissa Tomei. Jerry's girlfriend gets Jerry to care about things for half an episode, turns into an anti-Jerry; the episode resolves itself with Jerry being shocked back into normal Jerry by George temporarily revealing his own emotions. Or, just compare Kevin, "The Bizarro Jerry", to Jerry himself.

It's a profoundly nihilistic show, in a way that Rick and Morty doesn't even really touch.

Rick can travel between dimensions and meet infinite alternate Ricks and infinite alternate Mortys. The show informs us that he knows any one Morty or any one Beth doesn't actually matter. And Rick still occasionally cares about them. The subtext of Rick and Morty is almost anti-nihilist.

The nihilism in Seinfeld is presented realistically and non-fantastically and is so unsettling that people have a hard time even recognizing it for what it is.

I agree with you that Rick and Morty isn't a nihilist show, and neither are any of the characters nihilists. Rick is deeply cynical and maybe a philosophical pessimist, and he's definitely a moral relativist, but I wouldn't call him nihilist, no.

Your first paragraph is a really good set of examples, so I can see now how the characters can be perceived as nihilists. But my personal conception of how nihilism would operate in real life is that it would be intrinsically erratic and dysfunctional, with the nihilist continually struggling against an inherent lack of motivation and a biological drive for self-preservation. In that sense I consider nihilism to the functional equivalent of absurdism and pessimism. Absurdism has essentially the same core tenets as nihilism, but its literature reacts to a lack of intrinsic meaning with flippancy and a declaration that people should ignore that and continually strive for meaning anyway (which is inherent dissonant, but basically don't think about it and live on). From there, nihilism appears to be, in my opinion, what happens when someone encounters the dissonance of 1) no intrinsic motivation anymore, brought about by intellectually grappling with existential despair, and 2) instead of leaving that state, whether through traditional existentialism/religion (Kierkegaard) or through tucking it away and forgetting about it, lives on with it and doesn't commit suicide out of biological necessity.

In contrast I think the examples you posed about Seinfeld's characters are more like deep self-absorption or narcissism, and maybe outright sociopathy. In a certain sense it seems like a much more implicit form of the unsettling indifference portrayed in a Brett Easton Ellis novel.

I think maybe the problem here is that we're labeling characters but really should be talking about the worldview of the show, revealed through the characters.

To that point, I'd observe that the show's most unhinged character is also the one with the most humanity and alertness to the world around him. What is the show trying to say about life by suggesting that you'd have to be like Kramer to escape the gravity well of self-absorption around Elaine, George, and, most of all Jerry, the character you're most meant to identify with?

Kramer chides the group for poor behavior or passivity from time to time. He helps people with their problems. I'd dispute that he's nihilist.

That's true, but that's part of the joke: only the weirdest, most uncomfortable of the 4 characters is allowed any humanity.

You'd be right to dispute he's a nihilist. Out of all the characters, he's probably the least aware of the nature of his own existence, yet he's also the most well-adjusted to a life motivated by money and poontang. The character could still be seen in a nihilistic light because, despite his own moralism, he frequently contradicts himself and often ends up in a better place for it. If one were to read too far into what the writers were intending with Kramer, they might assume that he is meant to be a commentary on morality since his morals don't consistently serve him or the other characters, and Jerry can easily spot contradictions in Kramer's reasoning.

Seinfeld's motto guiding the series was "no hugging, no learning". It was set up to be a foil to the sitcoms of the day, which were morally authoritative and each episode was there to teach us a lesson.

There's only one somewhat-serious moment in the entire series, and it's when Jerry tells Elaine he doesn't want to get back together.

It's really brilliant and stands the test of time so well. But yes, definitely nihilistic.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head. I was referring to the characters.

> It's difficult to maintain compelling character development that can bring in a large viewership if a character is truly nihilist, in my opinion.

I found Rust from the first season of True Detective to be a refreshing exception to that rule

Yeah, actually I agree. Rust is one of the very few characters I can think of off the top of my head that successfully bridges the gap between romantic cynicism and true nihilism.

How is Rust a nihilist?

In the strict sense, as in "rejects all metaphysics AND all morals", I'm not sure I've ever seen a truly nihilistic character in any medium (the Joker might be one of the closest, though he might also be seen as being driven by highly warped morals instead). So on the subject of Rust: He does reject all metaphysics, but when it comes to morals, while he does not reject them completely, his relativism and pessimism, his struggle to find any sense in them, to justify why he acts like good or bad existed even if he doesn't truly believe that they do, that all leaves him closer to nihilism than we almost ever see in characters even if it is not 'truly' nihilism in the strict sense.

It's been a couple years since I watched, but isn't Rust an extremely moral character, possibly even more so than Martin Hart? He has a moral code and is driven, to the point of his own self-destruction, by a purpose outside of himself. Nihilism doesn't mean "no believing in metaphysics".

Meanwhile: in what possible way is George Costanza not a nihilist?

> Nihilism doesn't mean "no believing in metaphysics"

From http://www.iep.utm.edu/nihilism/

"While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history"

and

"It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence." (I think this actually fits a lot of Rust's character traits - even if I do agree that he is a moral character, but one struggling to justify those morals, and with self-destructive behaviors as a consequence)

So I agree that a rejection of morality is the much more central point of the concept of nihilism, but since it comes from radical scepticism, then rejection of religion, metaphysics, and anything else that requires faith, is an unavoidable side effect.

On a more personal note: I believe that extreme skepticism will put you in a place that's not sustainable for a mind to be in, and you'll eventually move on from it into 1) Embracing the pointlessness and its destructiveness and derive a sort of purpose from that, aka nihilism 2) Rejecting the pointlessness but acknowledging the fact that the morals you use to escape it are a social construct and not divinely given (aka Sartre's brand of existentialism) or 3) reject the pure skepticism and find meaning in religion after all (Kirkegaard's brand of existentialism). I'd say that Rust as a character is in the deliberation state between these outcomes (and I'd say he seems to go in a sort of 3)-ish way, though maybe more Buddhist than Christian). So no, not nihilist, but brushing up against it nonetheless

I guess, bringing this back to Rustin, that I'm just saying that there's no such thing as a deeply moral nihilist. To have moral convictions is to reject nihilism.

Nihilists aren't "super atheists".

I'd challenge that very strongly. I think morality is very compatible with nihilism, both in the existential and moral nihilistic varieties.

In existential nihilism, the only real requirement is that the nihilist rejects any notion of intrinsic meaning to life and existence (at least if I'm not mistaken, I'm rusty on these things). Moral nihilism is a natural extension of that which just requires a rejection of intrinsic morality.

I would broadly say that it's really difficult to actually be a nihilist, just as I said elsewhere in this thread that it's hard to realistically disbelieve in free will, even if you intellectually process the arguments and agree with them. There's certainly a hard threshold to pass, but I disagree that it has anything to do with morality or principles. As far as I'm aware, constructing personal moral rules from first principles as a pragmatic matter is allowed so long as the nihilist 1) acknowledges that those principles are arbitrarily chosen and 2) not representative of, or descending from, any objective laws that can be gleaned from the world via deduction or induction.

Basically, I'm saying utilitarianism is a valid moral framework, and utilitarianism is compatible with nihilism. The nihilist will face significant challenges in actually living day to day life in congruence with nihilism (i.e. not really believing in anything), but the nihilist can still as a separate matter construct a moral framework that at least seems rational and internally consistent for the purposes of self-preservation.

Frankly this seems like sort of a rabbit hole. I can accept a stronger view of nihilism that disallows adherence to any moral framework, but how does that allow a nihilist to behave at all consistently or continue to function? If we take away the word "moral" and instead abstract away the terminology to, "a set of personally principles, consistently applied", what does a nihilist look like who simply doesn't have that?

If we go back to Rust, he does have moral principles, but his behavior and words are congruent with the core of existential nihilism: he rejects the notion of meaning in life and existence and admits that he attempted suicide in despair but simply couldn't out of cowardice. From that perspective it seems like nihilism plus a set of consistent principles could coexist as the continual dissonance between conscious hyper-intellectualism (existential despair) and unconscious biological drives (self-preservation).

> That's not to say I disagree with your point about Rick and Morty having nihilist characters; I don't think Rick is a nihilist, but I also don't think nihilism translates well to film and television. It's difficult to maintain compelling character development that can bring in a large viewership if a character is truly nihilist, in my opinion.

How about Marvin from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy? (granted it's a book, but it has been adapted for TV and cinema and Marvin is, in my opinion at least, the best character in those particular adaptations).

> How about Marvin from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy? (granted it's a book, but it has been adapted for TV and cinema and Marvin is, in my opinion at least, the best character in those particular adaptations).

Nitpick. HHGTG was first a radio show, then a novel, then a TV series. Some think the TV series is actually closer to the radio show than the books…

Yeah you're right. I'd forgotten about the radio show.

I think they mean the show and not the characters. Even in that case, the show really isn't about nothing anymore than other sitcoms like Friends and Cheers are about nothing. The show still has plot lines. My love of Seinfeld is mostly how well the plot lines within each episode are weaved together and how the show invented so many phrases that we now use (or at least I use and most people understand).

The show is so quotable and relatable even almost 20 years later. Friends also does a pretty good job of this, but my problem with Friends is that you're supposed to like the characters (except Ross maybe) and they're all pretty terrible people. Seinfeld doesn't try and hide how terrible its characters are.

The characters in both Friends and Cheers cared about other characters. Neither had the "no hugging, no learning" rule. The Friends characters were self-absorbed, but they weren't nihilists.

Also the Seinfeld characters are funny people. They say funny things. The Friends characters are mostly put into funny situations (though Phoebe has a good line from time to time).

I think Rick is a recovering nihilist. Since he can travel between infinite dimensions, he sees all life, even his own, as cheap. Nihilism isn't enough for him emotionally, but every time tries to crawl out of that hole, his mind yanks him back because deep down, he knows, with a capital K, that there isn't a higher order to the universe. The tension between the arrogant asshole, and the broken philosopher is one of the things that make Rick an interesting character. That, and the fact that Rick is hilarious.

I've never heard (non-sarcastic copy-pasta) people go on about how smart the show is or the audience has to be to "get it" or anything, but I have heard this echoing reaction to those people anywhere and everywhere the show comes up recently.

It's pretty common for something with a large following to have two entirely different but mutually valid experiences of its fanbase. That can emerge in pretty much all apparently incongruent reports in society. For example, in a salary thread here on HN, one person might say he doesn't know anyone at Google earning more than $250,000, and he knows 20 engineers, someone else will chime in and say she knows 20 people earning that or more at the same level, etc.

I think they are making a caricatures of themselves when they talk about how smart the show is.

> You want a really nihilistic show?

Game of Thrones is way more nihilist than Rick and Morty or Seinfeld. At least when it comes to morality, ethics, and humanity in general.

Rick and Seinfeld do some scummy things out of pure self interest (or disinterest), but Game of Thrones is 100% about taking the training wheels off and letting characters rape and murder each other. Rick doesn't take slaves. Jerry doesn't have his rivals killed.

What's more, fans of Game of Thrones often root against the non-nihilist characters for not being "smarter". "Dumb" characters are often guilty of loyalty or romance or honor.

I say this as someone who enjoys the show. But I enjoy it as a thought experiment of a different society with different rules and culture.

Nihilism doesn't mean "uninhibited".

It can mean only inhibited practically, not in principle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_nihilism

I was with you until you mentioned Seinfeld.

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humor is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Rick's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his personal philosophy draws heavily fromNarodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realize that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick and Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick's existencial catchphrase "Wubba Lubba Dub Dub," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon's genius unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools... how I pity them. And yes by the way, I DO have a Rick and Morty tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

I had to look this up, but this is a meme post.

Sorry for spoiling the fun, but I honestly didn't get it at first.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/to-be-fair-you-have-to-have-a-...

Alternatively, there's this:

https://twitter.com/Doc_Destructo/status/917103509387882496

> rick and morty has given a generation of extremely sad and utterly unlikable men the idea their shit is charming and funny

Copypastas have officially entered HN ... upvoted anyway.

Most nihilists don't spend countless hours inventing complex devices and embarking on adventures.

How would you know?

Do you know most nihilists personally?

Do you know a single one for that matter?

that's what i do. i kind of can't help it, my mind is too active to sit still.

> It's a zany cartoon with witty dialog,

At least, it used to have witty dialogue. Now 95% of the conversation is:

Rick: "*Shut-uurp the f### up Morty you piece of s###"

Morty: "Y-y-y-y-y-you know Rick, not everybody likes the way things are going around here, Rick!"

I think you missed:

Morty: "Aw jeez..."

not in the last season, though

How is Seinfeld nihilistic?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com