How Science Makes “Rick and Morty” Great | Hacker News Reader

How Science Makes “Rick and Morty” Great

nautil.us

I'm getting pretty tired of Rick and Morty fans blowing the greatness of the show way out of proportion. I love the show, but not because it's "smart" or "nihilistic' or because it references science. It's a zany cartoon with witty dialog, and it's hilarious, but to claim it's more profound than that has so far proven to be little more than reading too far into it. Referencing pop culture isn't "smart" in and of itself, and it doesn't require extraordinary intelligence to recognize.

By the way, Rick is not a nihilist. He might be very careless and ambivalent, but that doesn't translate to any form of nihilism I'm aware of; in the case of the show, he's definitely not en existential nihilist, and it's arguable that he's not even a moral nihilist. The rest of the characters on the show are not nihilists; myopic would be a more accurate description. You want a really nihilistic show? Watch Seinfeld.

I think they are making a caricatures of themselves when they talk about how smart the show is.

> You want a really nihilistic show? Watch Seinfeld.

Eh? Do you mean nihilist in the (meta) sense that the show "is about nothing" and has no inherent meaning? Because none of the characters on Seinfeld strike me as nihilist either.

That's not to say I disagree with your point about Rick and Morty having nihilist characters; I don't think Rick is a nihilist, but I also don't think nihilism translates well to film and television. It's difficult to maintain compelling character development that can bring in a large viewership if a character is truly nihilist, in my opinion.

For my purposes I don't believe it's enough to have a character profess adherence to existential nihilism - I don't agree a character is nihilist unless they also act like it, and that is fundamentally difficult to do convincingly. I very often see writers use stoicism, ruthless utilitarianism, (dysfunctional) cynicism and even atheism as proxies to demonstrate a character is nihilistic, but none of those really hits it on the mark. I consider it like free will: you can make extremely compelling arguments that free will (in the sense of the capacity for non-deterministic decision making) simply doesn't exist (or is at best implausible), but there's not really a convincing framework for altering your behavior even if you claim to believe that. This is unlike atheism or agnosticism, which do have clear behavioral proxies when you abstract them away from considerations of intrinsic meaning - simply don't participate in religious communities, gatherings or activities for its own sake.

I think they mean the show and not the characters. Even in that case, the show really isn't about nothing anymore than other sitcoms like Friends and Cheers are about nothing. The show still has plot lines. My love of Seinfeld is mostly how well the plot lines within each episode are weaved together and how the show invented so many phrases that we now use (or at least I use and most people understand).

The show is so quotable and relatable even almost 20 years later. Friends also does a pretty good job of this, but my problem with Friends is that you're supposed to like the characters (except Ross maybe) and they're all pretty terrible people. Seinfeld doesn't try and hide how terrible its characters are.

The characters in both Friends and Cheers cared about other characters. Neither had the "no hugging, no learning" rule. The Friends characters were self-absorbed, but they weren't nihilists.

Also the Seinfeld characters are funny people. They say funny things. The Friends characters are mostly put into funny situations (though Phoebe has a good line from time to time).

> It's difficult to maintain compelling character development that can bring in a large viewership if a character is truly nihilist, in my opinion.

I found Rust from the first season of True Detective to be a refreshing exception to that rule

Yeah, actually I agree. Rust is one of the very few characters I can think of off the top of my head that successfully bridges the gap between romantic cynicism and true nihilism.

How is Rust a nihilist?

In the strict sense, as in "rejects all metaphysics AND all morals", I'm not sure I've ever seen a truly nihilistic character in any medium (the Joker might be one of the closest, though he might also be seen as being driven by highly warped morals instead). So on the subject of Rust: He does reject all metaphysics, but when it comes to morals, while he does not reject them completely, his relativism and pessimism, his struggle to find any sense in them, to justify why he acts like good or bad existed even if he doesn't truly believe that they do, that all leaves him closer to nihilism than we almost ever see in characters even if it is not 'truly' nihilism in the strict sense.

It's been a couple years since I watched, but isn't Rust an extremely moral character, possibly even more so than Martin Hart? He has a moral code and is driven, to the point of his own self-destruction, by a purpose outside of himself. Nihilism doesn't mean "no believing in metaphysics".

Meanwhile: in what possible way is George Costanza not a nihilist?

> Nihilism doesn't mean "no believing in metaphysics"

From http://www.iep.utm.edu/nihilism/

"While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history"

and

"It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence." (I think this actually fits a lot of Rust's character traits - even if I do agree that he is a moral character, but one struggling to justify those morals, and with self-destructive behaviors as a consequence)

So I agree that a rejection of morality is the much more central point of the concept of nihilism, but since it comes from radical scepticism, then rejection of religion, metaphysics, and anything else that requires faith, is an unavoidable side effect.

On a more personal note: I believe that extreme skepticism will put you in a place that's not sustainable for a mind to be in, and you'll eventually move on from it into 1) Embracing the pointlessness and its destructiveness and derive a sort of purpose from that, aka nihilism 2) Rejecting the pointlessness but acknowledging the fact that the morals you use to escape it are a social construct and not divinely given (aka Sartre's brand of existentialism) or 3) reject the pure skepticism and find meaning in religion after all (Kirkegaard's brand of existentialism). I'd say that Rust as a character is in the deliberation state between these outcomes (and I'd say he seems to go in a sort of 3)-ish way, though maybe more Buddhist than Christian). So no, not nihilist, but brushing up against it nonetheless

I guess, bringing this back to Rustin, that I'm just saying that there's no such thing as a deeply moral nihilist. To have moral convictions is to reject nihilism.

Nihilists aren't "super atheists".

I'd challenge that very strongly. I think morality is very compatible with nihilism, both in the existential and moral nihilistic varieties.

In existential nihilism, the only real requirement is that the nihilist rejects any notion of intrinsic meaning to life and existence (at least if I'm not mistaken, I'm rusty on these things). Moral nihilism is a natural extension of that which just requires a rejection of intrinsic morality.

I would broadly say that it's really difficult to actually be a nihilist, just as I said elsewhere in this thread that it's hard to realistically disbelieve in free will, even if you intellectually process the arguments and agree with them. There's certainly a hard threshold to pass, but I disagree that it has anything to do with morality or principles. As far as I'm aware, constructing personal moral rules from first principles as a pragmatic matter is allowed so long as the nihilist 1) acknowledges that those principles are arbitrarily chosen and 2) not representative of, or descending from, any objective laws that can be gleaned from the world via deduction or induction.

Basically, I'm saying utilitarianism is a valid moral framework, and utilitarianism is compatible with nihilism. The nihilist will face significant challenges in actually living day to day life in congruence with nihilism (i.e. not really believing in anything), but the nihilist can still as a separate matter construct a moral framework that at least seems rational and internally consistent for the purposes of self-preservation.

Frankly this seems like sort of a rabbit hole. I can accept a stronger view of nihilism that disallows adherence to any moral framework, but how does that allow a nihilist to behave at all consistently or continue to function? If we take away the word "moral" and instead abstract away the terminology to, "a set of personally principles, consistently applied", what does a nihilist look like who simply doesn't have that?

If we go back to Rust, he does have moral principles, but his behavior and words are congruent with the core of existential nihilism: he rejects the notion of meaning in life and existence and admits that he attempted suicide in despair but simply couldn't out of cowardice. From that perspective it seems like nihilism plus a set of consistent principles could coexist as the continual dissonance between conscious hyper-intellectualism (existential despair) and unconscious biological drives (self-preservation).

> That's not to say I disagree with your point about Rick and Morty having nihilist characters; I don't think Rick is a nihilist, but I also don't think nihilism translates well to film and television. It's difficult to maintain compelling character development that can bring in a large viewership if a character is truly nihilist, in my opinion.

How about Marvin from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy? (granted it's a book, but it has been adapted for TV and cinema and Marvin is, in my opinion at least, the best character in those particular adaptations).

> How about Marvin from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy? (granted it's a book, but it has been adapted for TV and cinema and Marvin is, in my opinion at least, the best character in those particular adaptations).

Nitpick. HHGTG was first a radio show, then a novel, then a TV series. Some think the TV series is actually closer to the radio show than the books…

Yeah you're right. I'd forgotten about the radio show.

No, they mean the characters. Virtually every character on Seinfeld is a nihilist. Nobody on Seinfeld --- with the possible exception of Jerry's parents --- cares about anybody or anything. Susan dies from licking poisonous envelopes and they all go out for coffee before George tries to hit on Marissa Tomei. Jerry's girlfriend gets Jerry to care about things for half an episode, turns into an anti-Jerry; the episode resolves itself with Jerry being shocked back into normal Jerry by George temporarily revealing his own emotions. Or, just compare Kevin, "The Bizarro Jerry", to Jerry himself.

It's a profoundly nihilistic show, in a way that Rick and Morty doesn't even really touch.

Rick can travel between dimensions and meet infinite alternate Ricks and infinite alternate Mortys. The show informs us that he knows any one Morty or any one Beth doesn't actually matter. And Rick still occasionally cares about them. The subtext of Rick and Morty is almost anti-nihilist.

The nihilism in Seinfeld is presented realistically and non-fantastically and is so unsettling that people have a hard time even recognizing it for what it is.

Kramer chides the group for poor behavior or passivity from time to time. He helps people with their problems. I'd dispute that he's nihilist.

That's true, but that's part of the joke: only the weirdest, most uncomfortable of the 4 characters is allowed any humanity.

You'd be right to dispute he's a nihilist. Out of all the characters, he's probably the least aware of the nature of his own existence, yet he's also the most well-adjusted to a life motivated by money and poontang. The character could still be seen in a nihilistic light because, despite his own moralism, he frequently contradicts himself and often ends up in a better place for it. If one were to read too far into what the writers were intending with Kramer, they might assume that he is meant to be a commentary on morality since his morals don't consistently serve him or the other characters, and Jerry can easily spot contradictions in Kramer's reasoning.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head. I was referring to the characters.

I agree with you that Rick and Morty isn't a nihilist show, and neither are any of the characters nihilists. Rick is deeply cynical and maybe a philosophical pessimist, and he's definitely a moral relativist, but I wouldn't call him nihilist, no.

Your first paragraph is a really good set of examples, so I can see now how the characters can be perceived as nihilists. But my personal conception of how nihilism would operate in real life is that it would be intrinsically erratic and dysfunctional, with the nihilist continually struggling against an inherent lack of motivation and a biological drive for self-preservation. In that sense I consider nihilism to the functional equivalent of absurdism and pessimism. Absurdism has essentially the same core tenets as nihilism, but its literature reacts to a lack of intrinsic meaning with flippancy and a declaration that people should ignore that and continually strive for meaning anyway (which is inherent dissonant, but basically don't think about it and live on). From there, nihilism appears to be, in my opinion, what happens when someone encounters the dissonance of 1) no intrinsic motivation anymore, brought about by intellectually grappling with existential despair, and 2) instead of leaving that state, whether through traditional existentialism/religion (Kierkegaard) or through tucking it away and forgetting about it, lives on with it and doesn't commit suicide out of biological necessity.

In contrast I think the examples you posed about Seinfeld's characters are more like deep self-absorption or narcissism, and maybe outright sociopathy. In a certain sense it seems like a much more implicit form of the unsettling indifference portrayed in a Brett Easton Ellis novel.

I think maybe the problem here is that we're labeling characters but really should be talking about the worldview of the show, revealed through the characters.

To that point, I'd observe that the show's most unhinged character is also the one with the most humanity and alertness to the world around him. What is the show trying to say about life by suggesting that you'd have to be like Kramer to escape the gravity well of self-absorption around Elaine, George, and, most of all Jerry, the character you're most meant to identify with?

Seinfeld's motto guiding the series was "no hugging, no learning". It was set up to be a foil to the sitcoms of the day, which were morally authoritative and each episode was there to teach us a lesson.

There's only one somewhat-serious moment in the entire series, and it's when Jerry tells Elaine he doesn't want to get back together.

It's really brilliant and stands the test of time so well. But yes, definitely nihilistic.

I think Rick is a recovering nihilist. Since he can travel between infinite dimensions, he sees all life, even his own, as cheap. Nihilism isn't enough for him emotionally, but every time tries to crawl out of that hole, his mind yanks him back because deep down, he knows, with a capital K, that there isn't a higher order to the universe. The tension between the arrogant asshole, and the broken philosopher is one of the things that make Rick an interesting character. That, and the fact that Rick is hilarious.

Most nihilists don't spend countless hours inventing complex devices and embarking on adventures.

that's what i do. i kind of can't help it, my mind is too active to sit still.

How would you know?

Do you know most nihilists personally?

Do you know a single one for that matter?

To further your point, if Rick was an "ist" he would be an absurdist. And historically speaking absurdists like Camus have been against the concept of nihilism because usually nihilists still try to find some internal meaning in life (something that absurdists rail against). To quote Camus (The Myth of Sisyphus):

> [Nihilists] deify what crushes them and find reason to hope in what impoverishes them.

If we had to label him he would definitely be a hedonist.

> It's a zany cartoon with witty dialog,

At least, it used to have witty dialogue. Now 95% of the conversation is:

Rick: "*Shut-uurp the f### up Morty you piece of s###"

Morty: "Y-y-y-y-y-you know Rick, not everybody likes the way things are going around here, Rick!"

not in the last season, though

I think you missed:

Morty: "Aw jeez..."

I've never heard (non-sarcastic copy-pasta) people go on about how smart the show is or the audience has to be to "get it" or anything, but I have heard this echoing reaction to those people anywhere and everywhere the show comes up recently.

It's pretty common for something with a large following to have two entirely different but mutually valid experiences of its fanbase. That can emerge in pretty much all apparently incongruent reports in society. For example, in a salary thread here on HN, one person might say he doesn't know anyone at Google earning more than $250,000, and he knows 20 engineers, someone else will chime in and say she knows 20 people earning that or more at the same level, etc.

How is Seinfeld nihilistic?

I was with you until you mentioned Seinfeld.

> You want a really nihilistic show?

Game of Thrones is way more nihilist than Rick and Morty or Seinfeld. At least when it comes to morality, ethics, and humanity in general.

Rick and Seinfeld do some scummy things out of pure self interest (or disinterest), but Game of Thrones is 100% about taking the training wheels off and letting characters rape and murder each other. Rick doesn't take slaves. Jerry doesn't have his rivals killed.

What's more, fans of Game of Thrones often root against the non-nihilist characters for not being "smarter". "Dumb" characters are often guilty of loyalty or romance or honor.

I say this as someone who enjoys the show. But I enjoy it as a thought experiment of a different society with different rules and culture.

Nihilism doesn't mean "uninhibited".

It can mean only inhibited practically, not in principle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_nihilism

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humor is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Rick's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his personal philosophy draws heavily fromNarodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realize that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick and Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick's existencial catchphrase "Wubba Lubba Dub Dub," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon's genius unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools... how I pity them. And yes by the way, I DO have a Rick and Morty tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

Alternatively, there's this:

https://twitter.com/Doc_Destructo/status/917103509387882496

> rick and morty has given a generation of extremely sad and utterly unlikable men the idea their shit is charming and funny

I had to look this up, but this is a meme post.

Sorry for spoiling the fun, but I honestly didn't get it at first.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/to-be-fair-you-have-to-have-a-...

Copypastas have officially entered HN ... upvoted anyway.

I think Rick and Morty resonates with people who are struggling with the disillusionments of adolescence: that you aren't as unique or special as you thought, that your parents have problems and concerns that have nothing to do with you, that you're just a lump of matter, and that how people value and treat you is influenced by your practical value to them.

It resonates even more with people who would prefer those issues be brought front and center, people who dream of achieving social acceptance but can't swallow the apparent disregard for larger issues that casual society demands. That the powerful and confident Rick openly addresses their fears is validating; that he manages to be blasé about them is reassuring. They are tired of feeling weak next to their peers who seem strong (or, preferably, stupid) enough to work at forging confident and polished versions of themselves that aren't marred by of the horribleness of the world. Rick provides an alternative model of strength that includes adolescent disillusionments front and center instead of sweeping them under the rug; Morty to Rick presents an alternative route to competent adulthood.

And of course it seems "nihilistic" to them even though it is nothing of the sort. Nihilism is a natural fascination for socially isolated adolescents, because they feel all of their illusions being stripped away and wonder what will be left when the illusions are gone. (Adolescents who feel socially connected don't feel a gaping nothing waiting to swallow them up when when their childhood illusions are gone. That's why some kids are able to gloss over it as an occasional terror, while it feels like an essential aspect of reality to others.) "Rick and Morty" is leading them along, season by season, to the discovery that there is something left, and, like math, you don't understand it so much as get used to it. The more weird and amazing things you learn, the more you learn that you are going to have an ordinary life even if you also have an extraordinary one, and to go one step further into painful territory, even if you don't.

Rick And Morty has a great number of good "science" jokes, but really its more about general Sci-Fi tropes. (Time Travel, Multiverses, Clones, Aliens, and Androids aren't really "science" as much as they are about "Science fiction")

But the hardest thing for me was to get used to the straight up nihilism of Rick. True, there have been plenty of Nihilistic "protagonists" in other shows: Peter Griffin in Family Guy, Eric Cartman from South Park, Homer Simpson (depending on the season of course).

But Rick is different: while the other characters are arguably Nihilistic due to ignorance, Rick purposefully and specifically pursues the "I don't care" attitude and gets away with it due to his intelligence (while other characters in other shows seem to get away with it due to literally dumb luck).

That difference continuously pisses me off in Rick and Morty, and as such its difficult for me to enjoy a lot of the episodes.

Nothing against the fanbase or anything: I recognize that Rick and Morty is a huge following, and the enormous lines at McDonalds for the special Rick and Morty Sauce just a few days ago demonstrates that Rick and Morty are the new "mainstream" cartoon. But its apathetic and malicious main character really grates on me, and I personally an unable to enjoy it as much as everyone else seems to.

I saw one episode and had the same reaction. I thought Rick was going to be like the professor from back to the future. Instead he's the bright but shallow kid making all the annoying smart alec comments, with a facile outlook on life he gets away with due to not having to live in the real world.

> I thought Rick was going to be like the professor from back to the future.

Well, it started off that way: https://vimeo.com/97680161 (NSFW)

Who knew that little short would turn into one of the most popular shows on TV?

Super nsfw 45 seconds in

The aesthetic gets across in the first 30, though.

Rick and Morty has a lot of "bad" episodes IMO, where there's nothing in them except Rick being an annoying jerk.

I was forced to keep watching since a group of my friends continued to watch Rick and Morty regularly, and I can definitely say that some episodes are way better than others. "A Rinkle in Time" (Season 2 episode 1) was mostly great episode for instance, and I can recommend it as one of the best that Rick and Morty can offer.

I haven't seen all of Rick and Morty: there may be some other really good episodes in there. But I've only seen maybe... 6 or 7 episodes across S1 and S2 (and I haven't seen any of S3). I recognize that Rick does occasionally care about Morty, but seriously, his treatment of Morty is downright abusive in the vast majority of episodes.

The fact that Rick saves Morty on some episodes doesn't change the fact that Rick's treatment of Morty is incredibly unfair.

I kind of agree and disagree with the criticisms in this thread. For a while in season 2 I didn't watch much of the show for pretty much the reasons given here. Nevertheless, I watched a good bit of the first and third seasons, including the [IMHO excellent] finale of Season 3 that prompted Elon Musk to get into a twitter discussion with the show about singularities and partying like Kurt Cobain. [1]

Rick and Morty are, I think, intended to be more archetypes rather than actual people most of the time, although sometimes their humanity (particularly Morty's, which is leveraged for comedic effect) shows through. Rick is definitely shown to have something of a softer side that he keeps deeply hidden.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15424659

Eh, I would say that Rick incompletely rejects his softer side rather than keeping it hidden.

He doesn't want to care about anyone or anything; it is how he copes with living in a crap-sack multiverse where he regularly sees himself or his family die, or even kills them himself. Hell, we don't even know that his S1 family was his original family; he abandoned them easily enough in the Cronenberg episode. For all we know, his Beth did die as a child like in his (false) memory in S3E1. He might have returned years later to a different universe, one abandoned by another Rick. We don't know that Morty is his original Morty; the memories in the flashback episode could have been collected from dozens or hundreds of Mortys who didn't make it. Heck, even Rick isn't the original Rick; he has body-hopped through several incarnations on-screen.

So he rejects all meaning, but he's still a human with irrational attachments, so sometimes he will stop and do something for someone else. But to him, it's the same as his crippling substance abuse, just one more weakness being indulged for his momentary gratification.

Exactly, Rick is a faithful depiction of someone who believes individual lives are ultimately meaningless, which is implied by the whole multiverse scenario. Why does it matter if Morty1 is mistreated and is only kept alive for selfish pleasure? There are an infinite number of Mortys, so Morty1 is nothing special.

Rick is more or less presented as someone who is so ashamed of his sentimentality that he is willing to go to great lengths to hide it, deny it, or discredit it, even if it means being abusive to other people. The only time he seems to buckle is when his family's lives are at stake.

The show is not "old-school" episodic. You're not going to get a little bit of everything in every episode. It has wider arcs, like most modern shows do.

So it doesn't make much sense to me that anyone would criticize the show for Rick's abusiveness... That's almost the whole point of him. If he weren't abusive, he'd be a "sitcom superman," but as it is, he gets to play the hero and the villain, which is a pretty compelling dynamic. (See Breaking Bad, for example.)

The "Breaking Bad" anti-hero protagonist is way more charming than Rick, and makes "Breaking Bad" much easier to watch. I'm definitely familiar with anti-heroes and have enjoyed a lot of them ("Death Note's" Light Yagami is one of my personal favorites).

> The only time he seems to buckle is when his family's lives are at stake.

And frankly? Words hurt. Actions hurt. Abusive words levied at naiive children can scar people for life.

Rick doesn't care about those instances and really mistreats Morty. True, he helps Morty when Morty's life is in danger, but there's a lot more to people's well being than just "alive vs dead".

I get that this is a comedy show and I'm supposed to not care about that sort of thing. But I honestly relate myself more to Morty than to Rick most of the time. So whenever Morty is being verbally abused by Rick, I just get pissed off.

I think "most" people relate themselves to Rick, and can enjoy the show from Rick's perspective. Which I can agree, it looks fun from that side. But unfortunately, my brain is hardwired for whatever reason to relate more to Morty, and Morty's placement in the world is... not very fair to him.

As viewers, we've seen a Morty who is able to outsmart/outmaneuver every other Rick. We've seen Morty make selfish and disastrous decisions by taking advantage of Rick's affections for him. So his status as a victim is also at least partially ambiguous.

It sounds like you're taking the show way more seriously than you should. Perhaps you just shouldn't watch it if it causes you that much anguish? The show does, on occasion, make subtle points about society as a whole. For example, S3E7. Sometimes you just need to read between the lines.

> I think "most" people relate themselves to Rick, and can enjoy the show from Rick's perspective.

Yikes. This has never even occurred to me before. I certainly hope you're wrong about this.

Yep. They also don't know what to do with him now that his character is, by their own admission, "some kind of fucked up God."

This season was originally going to have four more episodes that would address this but Harmon and Roiland didn't know how to resolve it properly. They admitted that the final episode was originally an arbitrary one which they "finale-ized" to wrap up the season.

I believe The Ricklantis Mixup really should've been the last episode of this season. It was undoubtedly the strongest one in terms of actual story. The rest (S03E01 excluded) just feel like 15 minutes of filler around a 5 minute joke or plotline. They were enjoyable for me, but I can see why someone wouldn't like this season.

I just commented here about how that episode may have gone too far in terms of fan service: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15435761

I liked the episode too. But the show now has an identity crisis: the fans (you and me) want to see the serious side explored, but it's honestly a bit pretentious and definitely less funny.

I definitely agree that Rick and Morty is a victim of it's own fan base. A similar thing happened to Mr Robot in S02, where it felt the entire season was just intentionally trying to mess with the audience with no real payoff (because the "big twist" in S01 was what people praised it for, even though it was basically just Fight Club 2.0).

I think the nihilism fits very well because if you could travel to an infinite possibility of dimensions you would see the world as a very different place.

All the things people argue and worry about mean nothing.

Traditionally, the great people who have seen infinite possibility and understand the world for what it really is have been guiding figures.

IE: Gandalf from Lord of the Rings, or the original "Doc" Brown from Back to the Future... or Dr. Who. Basically characters who have grown to understand the world and guides the other characters through the craziness of the world.

I recognize that Rick is purposefully inverted from the standard and typical trope here... and perhaps there really is too many Gandalf / Dr Who / Dr. Brown types in media. But still, I find the standard Gandalf / Dr. Who / Dr. Brown type to be more enjoyable to watch than the incarnation brought about in Rick and Morty.

It doesn't appear that Doc Brown, within the scope of the movies that we see, ever came to grips with just how horrifying the universe he lives in is. It's got many of the same issues that proof of and access to an infinite multiverse does.

Doctor Who fits somewhere in the middle, where the universe is more mutable than you might like but still is supposed to have some general flows and rules about what can't be changed, albeit presented as being so complicated than only the Doctor can even hope to understand them. And when writers process this properly there is always a sort of manic, edge-of-sanity element to the Doctor which makes sense.

Gandalf doesn't live in the same sort of universe, though. He lives in something more like our real universe, where actions have consequences and can't be undone, or sidestepped by just shooting a portal gun and stepping across to the next universe. And also, perhaps even more importantly, he lives in a universe where it is not possible for a time traveler from the far future to suddenly appear or for Rick to step out and just start killing people because he's in a bad mood and who cares about fantasy-era bumpkins?

I don't think Rick is too far out of line, in terms of the universe he lives in.

Science was one of the few classes that I really responded to in grade school. You’re learning all the cool, big stuff, about evolution, and we were seeing those Pillars of Creation, that amazing Hubble image.

It was so fascinating, hearing these big, broad ideas. It would be like, “Now we’re going to talk about DNA and Lamarckian genetics.” But when you had to be smarter for it, like, “Now we’re going to use pipettes and study pH balances,” I was like, “Eh, science is getting a little too sciencey for me.”

I think this nicely captures the appeal of fun sci-fi adventure series like "Rick and Morty" and "Doctor Who." Learning mind-blowing new things becomes harder and rarer as you get older, and sci-fi keeps the experience fresh for us.

(Also, I was surprised to see them mention a dozen or so sci-fi shows and authors without a single nod to Doctor Who, which seems like the most direct inspiration for Rick and Morty. The inscrutable but often joyous magician traveling space and time with a magical device, constantly getting into mortal peril yet overcoming armies when he needs to, changing the fate of civilizations, encountering reminders of his colorful past, traveling humbly yet openly reveling in his power when he's forced to wield it, his callous facade complicated by his compulsive and somewhat careless habit of bringing an ordinary person along. And of course the theme song is an obvious homage.)

Morty seems to represent our inner scared timid self while Rick seems to represent our inner projected/desired self. Nerdy introverts can relate to this duality I think. The science and pop references are just frosting on top of the themes we can relate to, like a broken family struggling to hold itself together, struggling to understand your kids, struggling to connect with your parents, and so on.

Similar to Futurama, the science reference where great, but when I think of the show I remember the dog sitting in front of the pizza shop waiting for fry before the science gags.

> Morty seems to represent our inner scared timid self while Rick seems to represent our inner projected/desired self.

See, that's interesting, because besides being voiced by the same actor, there is some evidence in the show that Morty is Rick.

Do you remember where this is implied in the show? That theory is super interesting.

Right, rick and morty is one of the few things that "science" makes great. The rest of the sciency mumbo jumbo, meh, boring. /s

Yea right, turning into a pickle is very sciency

Rick and Morty is a prime example of things that have been destroyed by its own fans. Arrow (Olicity...) or Undertale is also a really good example.

True and succinct, although "destroyed" is excessive -- its still just as possible to enjoy undertale on its own.

R&m though really is a victim of its fanbase. I tried watching the fan favorite s3e01 with my dad, who has seen all of seasons 1 and 2, and he really couldnt follow the plot. It made me realize that I probably only liked it because I watched each episode of seasons 1 and 2 at least twice (the dvd commentary is great). I'm just going to skip watching the council of ricks episode from season 3 with him, it's really self indulgent.

Maybe do a rerun of the council of ricks episode from Season 1 with your dad instead? As one of my favorite episodes, it feels bizzare that you'd rather skip it just because it references a previous episode.

Looks good, but exaggerated infatuation. Come on..

Honestly I'd rather have the ridiculous fans than pretentious people here arguing and nit picking stupid shit to sound more intelligent. It's a show, watch it, enjoy it, stop trying to hold everything against some fictional ideal model. "Ooh but it's not really THAT existential and nihilistic" who the fuck cares you hipster; what elements it has in those areas goes well beyond most other available shows. Much like creating a government to hide from the government, it's pretty damn hypocritical for you all* to sit here and complain about other peoples opinions gumming up the show by complaining about the show with your own overblown armchair drivel. Watch it or don't but shut the fuck up and move on with your day.

* Of course not actually everyone

I feel like you're missing the point that people are making. I personally agree with you when you say "It's a show, watch it, enjoy it, stop trying to hold everything against some fictional ideal model." I don't even have a problem with people seeing something in a form of art that I don't. If someone sees a lot of nihilism or even meaning in Rick and Morty, there's nothing wrong with that.

My gripe with Rick and Morty fans, as a group, is that they seem to make a lot of claims that come off as arrogance against people who "just can't understand" the show as they see it. I know a lot of Rick and Morty fans in real life, and I do like the show myself, but I've even met people offline that seem to believe that being a fan of the show means you're of some apex intelligence. I nitpick these claims because they're often made through an objective standpoint, not a subjective one. I have no problem with subjective views, but once I'm told "Oh this thing is so nihilistic, so intelligent, so smart... you just don't get it", of course I'm going to refute those points when I find little basis for them.

I normally don't let public opinion dictate what I should like, but a lot of fan behavior I've experienced is so toxic that I'm now having difficulty having anything to do with it. I mean, waiting in line at McDonalds and even jumping the counter for some freaking sauce packets mentioned one time in the show? That's so over-the-top pathetic, I feel kinda gross even thinking about it. I shutter to think that they, many of whom are grown adults, are going to become parents.

> what elements it has in those areas goes well beyond most other available shows

What are some of those elements?

I think the true selling point of R & M is that the plot defies expectations, not by simply going to the contrary but by turning left of the hero road, following a insane idea and sticking to it until the trophe falls apart and something i call messy realism appears. What would happen if you hang around the borg? Oh, turns out the hivemind is people too. And so on, and so forth.

Rick and Morty is "just" great Tv showing how much on rails all the other plots in all the other shows usually are. My problem is, that i think the show has no overall arc - and that they desperatly will try to glue one together.

The hivemind episode was a great deconstruction of pansexualism and open-ended identity politics.

No overall arc is the ultimate test of creativity. That's why Seinfeld (or arguably The Office) are so impressive to me. It seems like R&M is headed in a similar direction, since they take a lot of pleasure in pretending like they're building an arc and then resolving it in the most anti-climactic way ("Anyway, that's how I escaped from space prison!").

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