I don't want to get all tinfoil, but have read many who have insinuated that this may have been an inside job by president of Turkey to get rid of dissenting voices.
This sort of thing kinda lends credence to that sort of idea.
This sort of thing kinda lends credence to that sort of idea.
Having said that, I stayed up watching the whole thing, and it never felt very real. There's no way you're going to fire on people in the streets with a helicopter but not shoot down the president's plane. Hell, they didn't even arrest the Parliament.
Not the craziest thing to say he would setup a coup against himself.
What I'm wondering is where things go from here and if anyone can do anything about it. I'm guessing the likes of the NSA probably have some info on who did what if they feel like using it.
Besides, there are sensible explanations why his plane was not shut down etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...
No, that kind of group think is a consequence of not having proper freedom of press and proper freedom of association in the country. Which in turn is a consequence of voting for Erdogan (even if not everything was roses on that front before Erdogan, to be fair).
> That is a consequence they should have been thought of before being involved with a coup.
The teachers and other of the movement that wasn't involved in any wrongdoing are still part of those getting hit by the witch hunt.
As for businesses being threatened, how many media businesses have been closed by Erdogan? Free press is not optional for something that claims itself to be a democracy. Turkey is worst in class in that department, and as long as that is the case, whatever people support doesn't really matter, because the leader can dictate what news they see (or not).
>"As for businesses being threatened, how many media businesses have been closed by Erdogan?"
Erdogan and Gulen organisation in police and in judicial system done those things together. Every trial that is against Gulen's opponents contamined with fabricated proofs.
>"Turkey is worst in class in that department"
I sadly agree with you.
>"whatever people support doesn't really matter, because the leader can dictate what news they see (or not)."
Things are a bit complicated than that in Turkey. Most of the people hated Gulen's organisation before 2013, where Erdogan and Gulen media protected and praised him. Also other political parties support Erdogan in this case...
There's also the little thing that they used to be on Erdogan's side, too, and helped him purge the military of officers who might topple him. Check out operation sledgehammer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan)
After their break-up with AKP, when the corruption scandals showed up, the movement quickly became the scapegoat of the ruling party, accused of having formed a "parallel statal system". IDK if Gulen himself organised this coup (how can I know), but I can say that, reasoning on the Turkish public's view of the movement, including third party stories I've heard over the years (tho I've never met a member), they certainly have the network, hierarchy and the power to do it. It may also be someone in their hierarchy below Gulen that organised it. Time will show us the reality, I think.
Interesting tidbit: The officials who went to kill/capture Erdogan was told the group of soldires that they were to "pick up a high level PKK operative (A Kurdish terrorist organisation) in Marmaris." http://www.milliyet.com.tr/-gerekirse-olun-ama-gundem-228033...
Gulen shot my dog.
I think liberals and the liberal media are picking sides here, and they shouldn't be. Erdogan's vision of Turkey is far more secular and liberal than what the Gulenist movement wants. Turkey seems in better hands with the current leadership, which wins elections and is a strong NATO partner, compared building another middle-east theocracy. Like most politics, its a case of the lesser evil. I'm not exactly sure what liberals think is possible in Turkey, but migrating to a UK or French level of liberalism in what's a highly religious and conservative country isn't realistic. Even if it was, guys like Gulen aren't going to get you there.
This is a bit like leaving Catholicism to become a Scientologist. You're better off staying Catholic and trying to reform the church from within.
On the other hand Erdogan is racing to world #1 in closing news outlets, throwing reporters in jail, threatening anyone who speaks against him and so on.
Or are you saying that the Turkish people don't have a right to self-determiniation and elites like yourself should prescribe who their leaders are? Liberals decry overthrowing Iran and other governments, but here they are, pleading to overthrow Turkey. Its bizarre.
How about letting the democratic process work itself out and stop murdering civilians?
Or are you talking about the GTA IV cheat codes they found that definitely prove it?
I think I might take a closer look: if Matt Green found this app entertainingly bad, even though I'd never heard of it before today, that makes me a little curious.
I'll probably announce if there are any clear signs, but Matt seemed to have not found any, and that wouldn't surprise me: attribution is rarely easy and caution always needs to be borne in mind as to accuracy - especially when it comes to trying to tell apart intentional awfulness (happily, rare - but not completely unheard of) from genuine amateur hour (sadly, all-too-common).
As a clever attacker who wanted a backdoored app could well just deliberately outsource it to someone cluelessly inept, for that authentic (and, incidentally, ultra-cheap) feel, there's an element of Poe's law at hand: how do you ultimately know?
Though it wouldn't surprise me if Erdogan had one or two people try to stir things a bit like the Syria false flag idea (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-27/here-youtube-false-...)
However somewhat foreign press is trying hard to see it other way. Many foreign journalists even supported the coup instead of condemning until failure is imminent. Some reasons can be that they just dislike the current president and often their information sources are people who are affiliated with the cleric's movement.
Clearly this coup attempt gave a golden opportunity to the president to purge Gulen followers from the state and nobody is denying this. But that is the expected behavior, whether or not it is justified. To me, Gulen and his upper hierarchy just blindly pushed all their low rank followers to the fire (most probably did not have a clue about the coup).
The problem is about prosecuting 99000 teachers, academics, and other "inconvenient" people, without much more than a hint that they do not like you or that they make fun of your similarity with Golum.
However this Doesn't mean that particular groups was not involved or took the initiative, I hope more will be revealed in time.
If "Gulen's people" existed in government then they would have a police run coup with a thin veneer of military. They would also keep as much from the military as possible since they are the type of trash the military takes out whenever it is in cleanup mode.
Gulen is pretty obviously Erodogan's version of a US vice president. A stupider version of himself that no one wants and stays a threat if the president is removed by force.
Ok, so then the people Erdogan moved into the military between 2010 and 2013 they were these remaining Gulen supporters in government that are intent on destroying the republic? Or he decided not to out existing Gulen supporters he helped sneak in to the military before 2010 to either his new or its past republican leadership, (which would happily contain or remove such elements.)
None of this makes any sense unless he is admitting that he was an element of a religious group's conspiracy to corrupt the republic until 2013 and now also thinks his own continuation of power is more important than whatever religious beliefs he feels trump the republic. (A republic can't matter to a conspirator against it, right?)
That sounds like it would be slight if someone other than Erdogan said it about him and a terrible official position for a president of a republic. So what is his official position on the past that makes sense with all of this data about a Gulen lead conspiracy to destroy the Turkish Republic that began "decades before" their 2013 split?
"Rabbimden af milletimden özür diliyorum dedim. Çünkü burada hata yapmışız."
"I said that I apologize to my nation, ask for forgiveness from my god. Because we made a mistake here."
Gulen's organisation is older, they started to recruit people to state positions starting from 1970's. Erdogan and Gulen supported each other after 2002 election. Both benefited from this partnership at that time. Especially after Ergenekon trials, the army lost the ability to clean Gulen supporters. The organisation spread like a virus, capturing key positions faster.
As the remaining uneaten pie got smaller, they realized the country is not big enough for two of them(2011-2013). I think that too much centralized power is a bad thing. Something like checks and balances is needed in Turkey. However at this point it is better for a selected goverment to be in power than a secretive ponzi-scheme-like organisation(lesser evil mindset). Ironically Erdogan says now: "we were deceived". Other political parties say: "what if you get deceived again?".
If you are interested there are more info on the background of events in some wiki pages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_trials
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Tur...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imam%27s_Army
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_government_%E2%80%93_G...
Bargain, sure... No beating, no electro-shocks, no sleep deprivation. They just ask politely and show a little friendliness. Right.
If they have material evidence, what's the use of a "confession"? If they don't, there's something fishy already.
BTW, there obviously WAS some sort of coup or "coup". But who pulled the strings, what were the intentions, and, most importantly, were all those tens and hundreds of thousands people involved is completely fishy, judging by the news, and especially official news from Turkey.
oh and what happened to the stories of his son trading oil with ISIS, and his daughter building hospitals to treat wounded ISIS mercenaries?
3 years ago I visited turkey, it seemed like nice country with nice people, but these days I only wish it would be further away from Europe. and to think such a place wanted to join EU...
Erdogan even sues comedians abroad for telling a joke.. I really hope he never enters as eu member, it shouldn't be on the table in the first place.
Turkey isn't the same any more.
On the other hand joking, criticizing and insulting different things and Germany actually prosecuted the comedian for that event. So in that sense German legal system thinks Erdogan is right, and he only used his legal rights?
I enjoy watching US political debates and as far as I can see they are free to insult everyone. Sometimes that brings color to conversation and I wish we had more freedom to insult in Turkey.
For the EU membership, I have complicated feelings. When I look from the perspective of EU. I don't know what will Turkey bring to EU? Opportunities or risks? Probably both. They may not want to deal with minor or major problems Turkey brings and that is OK. As a Turkish citizen and a curious person for different cultures, I would love to experience and learn from what EU brings.
Maybe I just can't sense the boiling, maybe we got used to getting shocked... But Turkey feels the same at everyday life.