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Comment by sasas | Hacker News Reader

From the app description [1]

Extreme security with your fingerprint . Your fingerprint encrypts your call. Use this application for secure communication. This application uses industry leading encryption techniques .. Super Secure Free Calls available

TFA states that the app author was listed as 'David Keynes of Beaverton, Oregon'. Looking at the text from the author's Wordpress site [2] and app description, one could possibly come to the conclusion that the author is not a native english speaker (or has substandard grammar skills). 'David Keynes' a non native english speaker? Putting that together with claims of 'Super Secure Free Calls'. Something doesn't add up here..

[1] https://apkpure.com/bylock-secure-chat-talk/net.client.by.lo...

[2] https://bylockapp.wordpress.com/

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There are also hardly any search queries on Google trends [1], and less than 10 total tweets in Turkish between 2014-01-01 and 2016-07-16 [2]. Very strange, indeed.

[1] https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=2014-01-01%202016...

[2] https://twitter.com/search?q=%22bylock%22%20lang%3Atr%20sinc...

one of the tweet says: beware people in the government, these guys use some app called bylock, I hope you haved "cracked" it already.

another(from a gulenist it seems) says, guys don't use the same app for communications over and over, try to be more diverse (talk about an app called kakao)

I was translating the same messages* :)

Obviously, this app was known by public. So, I am not sure if they would risk themselves to use it to plan something illegal. Yet, things in Turkey are getting very amateurish in every aspects for the last decade. So, luckily for the sake of bits and pieces of Turkish democracy, this coup attempt was also amateurish.

However; I have the tendency to believe that Erdoğan knew that they were working on something nasty and he might had even encouraged it indirectly. So that, he could control it and benefit from it.

I must say that I have biased opinions against Erdoğan.

*@pazartesi2014 says

@kuscusencer ByLock programınıda umarım çözmüssünüzdür Reis paralelciler buna sardılar şimdi

@kuscusencer I hope you have decrypted the ByLock app, Reis (an informal expression, meaning superior). Gulenci People have started use this.

And this guy seems like from the movement

@nifaksavar

Arkadaslar sürekli aynı servis sağlayıcıyı kullanmayın bylock kakao vb..

---

Friends, don't always use the same service provider bylock, kakao etc..

yours are more accurate of course. Mines were only rough translations.

oh, I didn't mean that. But, thanks.

I agree with you that a military coup against democratically elected president is hardly a step toward democracy. But what Erdogan is doing in return is intolerable: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/aftermath-failed-turkey-coup-tort...

Totally agree with you. What happens right now gives the feeling that the military coup has succeeded.

I don't want to get all tinfoil, but have read many who have insinuated that this may have been an inside job by president of Turkey to get rid of dissenting voices.

This sort of thing kinda lends credence to that sort of idea.

It's my understanding that he's been putting his own people in high military positions for a while now. So it's not surprising that he could have short circuited the coup mechanism.

Having said that, I stayed up watching the whole thing, and it never felt very real. There's no way you're going to fire on people in the streets with a helicopter but not shoot down the president's plane. Hell, they didn't even arrest the Parliament.

And the President got exactly what he wanted out it, an increase in popular support and a consolidation of power. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he had a hand in his own coup attempt as a way to solidify his grasp on power.

Well this is the same president who had his officials caught red handed a couple years ago planning a false flag on themselves to start a war in syria.

Not the craziest thing to say he would setup a coup against himself.

It seems quite likely to me. Like why launch the coup at prime time, arrest zero government members, leave most TV stations running and not fire on Erdogan's plane? Also the guy who "allegedly gave the order that set the coup in motion" was one of Erdogan's AKP mates brother. Just today the guy who bombed the parliament was testifying and said he was instructed to drop a bomb in the parliament garden. I mean why bomb the garden if not for theater?

What I'm wondering is where things go from here and if anyone can do anything about it. I'm guessing the likes of the NSA probably have some info on who did what if they feel like using it.

Very few of the army generals were his supporters. From now on surely numbers will go up. But it is clear that for more than 20 years it was Gulen who put his followers to police force, army and all state departments (especially justice) semi-secretly. It was a network of people who collected information and kept things moving according to their agenda.

Besides, there are sensible explanations why his plane was not shut down etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

I get scared when I hear how many Turkish people talk about the Gülenist movement. The similarities to communism in the US during the 50s and 60s is striking. Sure, based on a "true story" but in the same way that the movie 300 is.

Can you blame people? That is a consequence they should have been thought of before being involved with a coup.

How exactly was all those teachers involved in the coup?

No, that kind of group think is a consequence of not having proper freedom of press and proper freedom of association in the country. Which in turn is a consequence of voting for Erdogan (even if not everything was roses on that front before Erdogan, to be fair).

Did I say they were involved? Most likely they were clueless. I meant once the the decision makers of the movement are even slightly involved with this, people will blame it all. This is a natural reaction. Besides, on the flip side, movement has more serious `group think` issues than others.

You said

> That is a consequence they should have been thought of before being involved with a coup.

The teachers and other of the movement that wasn't involved in any wrongdoing are still part of those getting hit by the witch hunt.

If they weren't involved that is OK. But if they supported this organisation in anyway it should be examined. Of course every legal action should be taken with evidence. Legal action was ongoing and slow. And I was supporting event-based trials not something like witch hunt. However after the coup attempt any state would take drastic actions to secure itself. And don't forget that most of the people supports this. (They bombed national council!). There are many background events you may or may not know, like mobbing other soldiers to resign, stealing questions of state entrance exam and sharing in their secretive organisation, businesses were threatened etc. Imagine something like that happens in a (rich) western country. It is hard to imagine, because they wouldn't allow it from the beginning... Situation is not clear and not black&white. In Turkey people try to choose lesser evil every time.

Actually, I'd claim that democratic countries would limit the drastic choices to the short period when it is actively defeating the actual coup. After the coup failed, there is plenty of time to be methodological and not harm the rule of law. If members of some group do something bad, then use the law to fight the wrongdoers for the actual crimes that has been committed.

As for businesses being threatened, how many media businesses have been closed by Erdogan? Free press is not optional for something that claims itself to be a democracy. Turkey is worst in class in that department, and as long as that is the case, whatever people support doesn't really matter, because the leader can dictate what news they see (or not).

I agree with you in general. I think the key justification point for ongoing trials is this organisation is in the works of infiltrating the government since 1970's. Also I am aware that Erdogan helped this organisation in the past, so I'm not a supporter. I only think it is better for the future of Turkey to get rid of a secretive organisation like this.

>"As for businesses being threatened, how many media businesses have been closed by Erdogan?"

Erdogan and Gulen organisation in police and in judicial system done those things together. Every trial that is against Gulen's opponents contamined with fabricated proofs.

>"Turkey is worst in class in that department"

I sadly agree with you.

>"whatever people support doesn't really matter, because the leader can dictate what news they see (or not)."

Things are a bit complicated than that in Turkey. Most of the people hated Gulen's organisation before 2013, where Erdogan and Gulen media protected and praised him. Also other political parties support Erdogan in this case...

But the Gulenist movement really is that creepy. It sounds more like scientology. Or maybe even more like a beefed-up version of Tvind, if you've heard about that.

There's also the little thing that they used to be on Erdogan's side, too, and helped him purge the military of officers who might topple him. Check out operation sledgehammer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan)

I had a look and it seems then the Gulenists were having a go at the army for allegedly plotting a coup. Later the big falling out between Erdogan and the Gulenists was when some of them tried to prosecute his cabinet for corruption. Is fighting coups and corruption through the legal system so bad? It seems to be the latter action of having a go at corruption that freaked Erdogan out and made him call them terrorists. He also called academics who signed a petition for peace terrorists and is now saying the west is supporting terrorism for not supporting him now. But he used to seem ok with buying oil from ISIS. He's got some funny ideas about that stuff.

The Gulenist movement was very involved in education. They had maybe hundreds of schools in every category of Turkish education system, and they have some Turkish language schools abroad too, and also provide loads of scholarship. The general opinion is that through these schools they were raising loyal members of the movement who'd go into all sorts of public and private institutions as high-rank employees. This opinion exists at least since 90's, and is vastly popular. It's known that members pay a fixed amount (AFAIK a percentage of their monthly pay) monthly to the organisation. Most members are conservative celebs, conservative enterpreneurs and white collar types.

After their break-up with AKP, when the corruption scandals showed up, the movement quickly became the scapegoat of the ruling party, accused of having formed a "parallel statal system". IDK if Gulen himself organised this coup (how can I know), but I can say that, reasoning on the Turkish public's view of the movement, including third party stories I've heard over the years (tho I've never met a member), they certainly have the network, hierarchy and the power to do it. It may also be someone in their hierarchy below Gulen that organised it. Time will show us the reality, I think.

The break-up happened before the corruption scandal, things soured because of political disagreements (Gulenists were not happy that government was trying to initiate talks with Kurdish groups. Everything about these talks collapsed later on.) Corruption scandal was their attempt to take down Erdogan who clearly had became an enemy element according to them.

Interesting tidbit: The officials who went to kill/capture Erdogan was told the group of soldires that they were to "pick up a high level PKK operative (A Kurdish terrorist organisation) in Marmaris." http://www.milliyet.com.tr/-gerekirse-olun-ama-gundem-228033...

I've never heard that Gulenists were not fond of Kurds. I'm from Turkey BTW.

I didn't mean that they were not fond of Kurds, they believed the initiative/talks in 2010's were wrong and would throw country into chaos (ironically this can be seen as a self fulfillig prophecy because of their actions).

IMO, even though in general movement has nationalistic tendencies, It cannot be said "they are not fond of Kurds" (as an ethnicity). However, their agencies were making a lot of negative press on the last peace process. Also, they were quite likely behind exposing secret peace meetings and mass detaining of kck members in (if I recall correctly) 2010. Apparently Kurdish problem was one of the main issues of conflict.

Gulen is turkey's Emmanuel Goldstein, their Bin Laden, their two dimensional hate figure on whom all ills are to be blamed.

Gulen shot my dog.

Its crazy how the liberal media is anti-Erdogan for understandable reasons (not being a Euro-style liberal), but the Gulen movement is a straight up theocracy. Erdogan has a religiosity of a George Bush. Gulen wants to be like the Iranian Ayotollah but seen as a living prophet as well.

I think liberals and the liberal media are picking sides here, and they shouldn't be. Erdogan's vision of Turkey is far more secular and liberal than what the Gulenist movement wants. Turkey seems in better hands with the current leadership, which wins elections and is a strong NATO partner, compared building another middle-east theocracy. Like most politics, its a case of the lesser evil. I'm not exactly sure what liberals think is possible in Turkey, but migrating to a UK or French level of liberalism in what's a highly religious and conservative country isn't realistic. Even if it was, guys like Gulen aren't going to get you there.

This is a bit like leaving Catholicism to become a Scientologist. You're better off staying Catholic and trying to reform the church from within.

People say that about Gulen but there doesn't seem much evidence eg. his recent statement "Like many Turkish citizens, the Hizmet movement’s participants supported Mr. Erdogan’s early efforts to democratize Turkey and fulfill the requirements for membership in the European Union."

On the other hand Erdogan is racing to world #1 in closing news outlets, throwing reporters in jail, threatening anyone who speaks against him and so on.

Then Gulen's party can win elections instead of having their loyalists in the military blow up civilians. Why are we excusing mass murder now? The coup attempt killed a lot of people for no reason and Gulen's people need to be held accountable.

Or are you saying that the Turkish people don't have a right to self-determiniation and elites like yourself should prescribe who their leaders are? Liberals decry overthrowing Iran and other governments, but here they are, pleading to overthrow Turkey. Its bizarre.

How about letting the democratic process work itself out and stop murdering civilians?

I'm all in favour of democracy which works better if you don't close half the press and I'm all in favour of punishing the murderers who are found guilty of murder based on evidence. Being guilty of being Gulenist is a different thing.

It's clear, is it? Has that been found by a court of law on the basis of sound evidence?

Or are you talking about the GTA IV cheat codes they found that definitely prove it?

There are more serious evidence to consider than a clueless random TV reporter's blunder. I will say statements of many captive officers and government workers but I guess you will say they are fabricated. A former police (who was fired because of a link with them) was found in a coup tank with army suit. You will say it was his personal vendetta. There are recordings of people hinting the event a month ago in public domain. Then you will say it is just not apparent. Bias is a problem but I think evidence so far is quite clear.

I haven't looked at the APK metadata, but I certainly wouldn't dismiss that out of hand - the author is apparently from the US, but has a Türkçe keyboard on display in a demo screenshot?

Where did you find that screenshot? Please provide evidence.

They probably meant the first screenshot on that APKpure page (https://apkpure.com/bylock-secure-chat-talk/net.client.by.lo... – it says "Türkçe" on the spacebar button). I don't know if it proves anything though…

Yes, that is what I was referring to. Of course it doesn't prove anything either way. It's simply one data-point surrounding the app, and its relevance is not clear (after all, I don't know who uploaded the screenshot, although those accounts do look like "test" accounts a dev might use?).

I think I might take a closer look: if Matt Green found this app entertainingly bad, even though I'd never heard of it before today, that makes me a little curious.

I'll probably announce if there are any clear signs, but Matt seemed to have not found any, and that wouldn't surprise me: attribution is rarely easy and caution always needs to be borne in mind as to accuracy - especially when it comes to trying to tell apart intentional awfulness (happily, rare - but not completely unheard of) from genuine amateur hour (sadly, all-too-common).

As a clever attacker who wanted a backdoored app could well just deliberately outsource it to someone cluelessly inept, for that authentic (and, incidentally, ultra-cheap) feel, there's an element of Poe's law at hand: how do you ultimately know?

It is overwhelmingly evident that coup was at least partly planned by Gulenists. There are tens of coup confessions making a direct link to the group already. All political groups in Turkey have a consensus on this.

However somewhat foreign press is trying hard to see it other way. Many foreign journalists even supported the coup instead of condemning until failure is imminent. Some reasons can be that they just dislike the current president and often their information sources are people who are affiliated with the cleric's movement.

Clearly this coup attempt gave a golden opportunity to the president to purge Gulen followers from the state and nobody is denying this. But that is the expected behavior, whether or not it is justified. To me, Gulen and his upper hierarchy just blindly pushed all their low rank followers to the fire (most probably did not have a clue about the coup).

Ton of coup confessions? When the KGB-like service gets anyone in their hands, they can make him or her confess anything. That's like Dictatorship 101.

You can deny everything and anything. However claiming Turkey is governed with dictatorship will not make you right. You need to put more evidence on the opposing theories and so far they do not add up.

Well, there are even more tons of "confessions" of the accused that "confess" NOT being part of the coup. I hope you'll give them the same weight as the opposite confessions.

Claiming being not part of a coup is something else. I have yet to see a coup official claiming it was a fake or orchestrated by the government.

How does one achieve the official status of a "coup official"?

An army offical involved in coup? e.g. either gave orders to soldiers to participate, or did not take action against the coup when ordered so.

OK. So now we are limiting this to the army and leaving teachers and flight attendants out. And all (or many) of those army officials allegedly involved in the coup attempt eagerly "confessed" their erroneous ways, while none of them denied being involved in a coup?

For instance by shooting four of your soldiers who refuse orders to participate in the coup. You should take a look at Bellingcat's coverage.

That's what I'm talking about. If there is evidence about person X doing some criminal deed (shoting soldiers) that in itself is sufficient for prosecuting him. You do not need his "confession" for that.

The problem is about prosecuting 99000 teachers, academics, and other "inconvenient" people, without much more than a hint that they do not like you or that they make fun of your similarity with Golum.

Coup was not an act of a single group. Government is putting all the blame to one group, they were not the only one.

However this Doesn't mean that particular groups was not involved or took the initiative, I hope more will be revealed in time.

But two religious anti-republicans admittedly helped each other into government and supposedly into even the most republican parts of government. But they turn on each other using the most republican wing?

If "Gulen's people" existed in government then they would have a police run coup with a thin veneer of military. They would also keep as much from the military as possible since they are the type of trash the military takes out whenever it is in cleanup mode.

Gulen is pretty obviously Erodogan's version of a US vice president. A stupider version of himself that no one wants and stays a threat if the president is removed by force.

But they were in the police force, after things really started to break between Erdogan and Gulen (December 2013) Erdogan made many interventions to clean police force.

> Erdogan made many interventions to clean police force.

Ok, so then the people Erdogan moved into the military between 2010 and 2013 they were these remaining Gulen supporters in government that are intent on destroying the republic? Or he decided not to out existing Gulen supporters he helped sneak in to the military before 2010 to either his new or its past republican leadership, (which would happily contain or remove such elements.)

None of this makes any sense unless he is admitting that he was an element of a religious group's conspiracy to corrupt the republic until 2013 and now also thinks his own continuation of power is more important than whatever religious beliefs he feels trump the republic. (A republic can't matter to a conspirator against it, right?)

That sounds like it would be slight if someone other than Erdogan said it about him and a terrible official position for a president of a republic. So what is his official position on the past that makes sense with all of this data about a Gulen lead conspiracy to destroy the Turkish Republic that began "decades before" their 2013 split?

Actually yes he is ironically admitting. (Turkish) http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/cumhurbaskani-erdogandan-onemli-a...

"Rabbimden af milletimden özür diliyorum dedim. Çünkü burada hata yapmışız."

"I said that I apologize to my nation, ask for forgiveness from my god. Because we made a mistake here."

Gulen's organisation is older, they started to recruit people to state positions starting from 1970's. Erdogan and Gulen supported each other after 2002 election. Both benefited from this partnership at that time. Especially after Ergenekon trials, the army lost the ability to clean Gulen supporters. The organisation spread like a virus, capturing key positions faster.

As the remaining uneaten pie got smaller, they realized the country is not big enough for two of them(2011-2013). I think that too much centralized power is a bad thing. Something like checks and balances is needed in Turkey. However at this point it is better for a selected goverment to be in power than a secretive ponzi-scheme-like organisation(lesser evil mindset). Ironically Erdogan says now: "we were deceived". Other political parties say: "what if you get deceived again?".

If you are interested there are more info on the background of events in some wiki pages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_trials

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Tur...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imam%27s_Army

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_government_%E2%80%93_G...

Or maybe they were involved and confessed during questioning for a bargain? Just because they did not tell things you wanted to hear doesn't mean they were given under duress or torture.

In any legal system that deserves to be called legal, sole confession without other strong material evidence is not acceptable.

Bargain, sure... No beating, no electro-shocks, no sleep deprivation. They just ask politely and show a little friendliness. Right.

If they have material evidence, what's the use of a "confession"? If they don't, there's something fishy already.

BTW, there obviously WAS some sort of coup or "coup". But who pulled the strings, what were the intentions, and, most importantly, were all those tens and hundreds of thousands people involved is completely fishy, judging by the news, and especially official news from Turkey.

I understand the skepticism, this is my personal observation so far. I read the initial statements, in time there will be court proceedings, and more data. They seem quite genuine to me. Unfortunately they are mostly in Turkish.

I've grown up in semi-oppressive regime and let me tell you, Erdogan's behavior is comic-book dictator in prime example, let's say Putin-style. i don't see person like him going away from power anytime soon.

oh and what happened to the stories of his son trading oil with ISIS, and his daughter building hospitals to treat wounded ISIS mercenaries?

3 years ago I visited turkey, it seemed like nice country with nice people, but these days I only wish it would be further away from Europe. and to think such a place wanted to join EU...

About those stories, search deeper for their sources.

Come visit again, please. It is still nice country with nice people. It only has bad friends as the saying goes. The geography has a lot of problems. There are a lot of strategies and games played by many players so disinformation is everywhere. I wish Turkey was an island nation.

I'm from Europe, have visited Turkey in the past, but have lost all affiliation to it.

Erdogan even sues comedians abroad for telling a joke.. I really hope he never enters as eu member, it shouldn't be on the table in the first place.

Turkey isn't the same any more.

I respect your opinion and also think it is not a classy move by Erdogan.

On the other hand joking, criticizing and insulting different things and Germany actually prosecuted the comedian for that event. So in that sense German legal system thinks Erdogan is right, and he only used his legal rights?

I enjoy watching US political debates and as far as I can see they are free to insult everyone. Sometimes that brings color to conversation and I wish we had more freedom to insult in Turkey.

For the EU membership, I have complicated feelings. When I look from the perspective of EU. I don't know what will Turkey bring to EU? Opportunities or risks? Probably both. They may not want to deal with minor or major problems Turkey brings and that is OK. As a Turkish citizen and a curious person for different cultures, I would love to experience and learn from what EU brings.

Maybe I just can't sense the boiling, maybe we got used to getting shocked... But Turkey feels the same at everyday life.

Is it even tinfoil-y at this point? Every time there's some new revelation or some new action taken by the president it all points to it being a faked coup to expand his power.

Well at one point after coup every theory about what happened seemed reasonable to many people in Turkey. "That seems reasonable, that also seems reasonable, hmm that is also possible..." However I don't think it is (all) fake. Because many high ranked generals risked their lives and there were moments where the winner is unknown. The coup was a failure because: they had no people or political party support, they were forced to act quickly(Government would purge most of the generals in incoming days), they couldn't get the support of all military personnel. Probably, this was their last hope for power-grab and they gambled.

It seems highly unlikely that it was an inside job: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2016/07/24/the-turkey-c...

I'll give you that that Bellingcat stuff makes it look like it wasn't Erdogan arranged. It doesn't seem terribly Gulenist either. Seems quite possible it was secular / nationalist army types similar to Turkey's previous coups. Erdogan was obviously out to get Gulenists before the coup as he must have had the list of judges to fire prepared before hand so it's quite likely that he's taking the opportunity to have a go at them regardless of evidence one way or the other.

Though it wouldn't surprise me if Erdogan had one or two people try to stir things a bit like the Syria false flag idea (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-27/here-youtube-false-...)

It feels quite strange. The app is supposedly made by a single person, who decided to... unpublish the app because it was too popular? And then, he kept a central server up and running to support the app nearly two years after that? There are 1951 user ratings for an average of 4 stars, and the creator claimed that there were about 1M users, yet hardly anyone has heard of it? The app also doesn't seem to have any ads from the screenshots.

Do you have the domain name used for the central server? I doubt a whois is very enlightening, but it's another thread to track down.

A consequence of unpublishing the app is that the user has to check "allow untrusted sources". That could in turn be practical if your goal is to install spyware (unless byLock itself contains the spyware which might be too obvious).

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