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Comment by simbalion | Hacker News Reader

This stuff is a fad, like the housing bubble and the .com boom. People who don't really understand technology or the internet or how people use both think they smell gold and they take us on these ridiculous roller coaster rides about "The next big killer app" or whatever. Then that app is dead in 5 years.

I guess if all one is interested in is making money, then good for them, kudos. But in the grander sense.. "the internet shrugged."

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I'm not sure that's the case for Line. I've used Line only sparingly, but I live in South Korea, which has KakaoTalk, the chat app usually described as being to Korea what Line is to Japan (or vice-versa, since Line was patterned after Kakao). Their UX is very similar.

KakaoTalk is huge. It's hard to separate from being Korean. Everybody has it by default. It's the standard way to communicate. It's used for notifications. The merchandising is everywhere, from its own retail stores to branded products on every corner. The characters are beloved. A new sticker pack is a highlight of the day. Using stickers well is a significant element of social eloquence. There's no laptop screen without it; if people are seen typing into a phone it's probably what they are typing into. KakaoTalk is so fundamental to Korean daily life, it's more like ... the water supply. It's a fact of being here and not there. It's culture.

Will KakaoTalk perish one day? Maybe. The open standards and anti-surveillance ideologist in me adds "hopefully". But if it does it will nonetheless have provided the substrate for an entire generation, a vast moment in time. Innovators may shrug, technologists may shrug - but if the whole thing we do is about building civilization and facilitating culture, as I believe it is, KakaoTalk is factually that in action. Some fad that is.

It's only existed for 5 years. Technology moves very swiftly and with new capabilities comes new apps, something will replace it and so I call them fads, maybe I'm wrong to do so, but let's see if it still exists in 20 years.

Someone else deserves the credit for saying this, but the only things that survive on the internet are protocols. E-mail, FTP, HTTP, and as it relates to messaging, Jabber. These things are not fads and the only reason I've seen them fail is when the technology does not live up to the needs of people. If Jabber didn't have a number of important issues, perhaps all chat apps would still be using Jabber and none of these "SMS Replacements" would exist.

I think I might be biased, because none of the popular chat apps in recent years has been truly open. I hate proprietary messaging apps. I hate when progress takes a back door to profiteering, especially when the profit model is selling stupid, un-exportable .gifs for $1 each. Talk about preying on the weak.

Believe me, I get where you're coming from. I've worked on open source stuff - including chat apps and even a Jabber client - for 12 years, and it's still my day job, and I wouldn't want to miss going to bed knowing my work doesn't screw anybody over.

So KakaoTalk and that I use it is a thorn in my side. Client and servers are closed source, there isn't an API allowing for client replacements, the protocol is undocumented, there is no federation, it's known to be under government surveillance, you get a single login session per SIM so you can't do multi-identity on the same device, there are no clients for open platforms, there is no open governance of any kind. It's so wrong.

At the same time I've learned it's wrong to resent the user and their lack of care and diligence. It's misspent energy and distracts from forward progress. It doesn't ever change minds. Instead you need to try and have empathy and understand why they do what they do, and why their priorities are different. They're not weak.

The truth is, KakaoTalk does what it does very well and friction-free. The UX is great. They improve things regularly and thoughtfully, supporting what people actually do with the app. It's kinda magic. The stupid .gif's aren't stupid at all, they're ~$3 for ~20, and users would readily say they're worth that - and they're right, compared to the value they get out of a hamburger it's a steal. They meaningfully make their days better.

If you want to beat it, you have to be at least better at the things people care about. It's not easy, because it's very good at them.

I hope we figure it out.

I share your optimism, and I am confident we will figure it out, which is why I describe these apps and similar ones as fads. They prey on ignorance and that will not last forever because the users are becoming less ignorant, as recent history (30ish years) has shown us.

That's interesting - what do you mean by being used for notifications? Sites / services / stores can send you a KakaoTalk notification? I experimented with sending alerts for server health via WhatsApp but the phone number -> ID ties make it difficult.

Many restaurants here offer a bonus point program - you tap your phone number into the touchscreen of their POS system, and then you get a customized message from the restaurant on your Kakao. Kakao accounts are affiliated with a phone number, so similar to WhatsApp, you will get friend suggestions based on your phone number address book and similar.

Line is a fad like Facebook is a fad then. Pretty much every single person in Japan with a smartphone has the app and it is the standard way to communicate. I didn't need a phone plan when I lived there because I ended up making maybe 5 actual phone calls over the course of 3 years because LINE totally served my needs.

The only people I met with a Facebook were people who liked traveling and were actively looking for English speaking friends.

Almost every person in Taiwan has LINE, too. Something like 75% of the country has an account.

And everyone who communicates with people in Taiwan.

Sticker sets are shockingly popular with the 40+ crowd.

This is also the case in countries down south like Thailand. Everyone who is anyone is on LINE, and businesses display their LINE ID before anything else.

Line ID + FB page and now more often Instagram.

> I didn't need a phone plan when I lived there because I ended up making maybe 5 actual phone calls over the course of 3 years because LINE totally served my needs.

And of course LINE has now announced their own MVNO where you get unlimited LINE for 500 yen/mo...

Easy to say about any new app. Do you include Facebook and Google in this? They were most certainly a "killer app/site" at launch, but managed to stick around.

Yes, however neither google nor facebook can be pinned down to a single product. They are now holding companies which own dozens of products, some of which are successful, some which are fads.

Ditto the Kakao and Line brands. Which are in turn operated by Daum and Naver - the two Korean internet giants. Google Maps for example is nigh on useless here: People use Naver Maps or Daum Maps. Line's principal visual identity is true to the mothership and uses "Naver green".

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