I have some good friends that work for $unamed_spacex_competitor and their claim is essentially that spacex is considered a "bad" job in the industry. They talk about it like it's a sweatshop.
Honestly, I think it's just jealousy. If you meet somebody and tell them you work for spacex, they think you're a rockstar. If you meet somebody and tell them you work for Boeing, they say "oh, I didn't know Boeing made rockets, you should go work for spacex!".
It does sound like SpaceX is long hours and hard work...but a lot of people really enjoy that sort of thing.
The work is long, hard and rewarding. But it's clearly not for everyone. And they're pretty up front about that.
Sadly, whenever these discussions about employees leaving SpaceX come up, some commenters invariably come to the false conclusion that anyone who leaves SpaceX is a loser or somehow couldn’t hack it here. This is obviously not true.
Priorities change and work being the number one or singular focus during one period of life doesn’t make it so perpetually. People get older/more mature and some decide they want to start a family, travel more, want to own a home (not an easy task even as a well paid engineer here in LA), or any number of other good reasons that may lead to leaving SpaceX. None of these reasons should reflect poorly on those who leave.
With that being said, I find it incredibly annoying when new employees come in, some with very impressive backgrounds, and within a few weeks start complaining about the work environment despite it being made abundantly clear to them at every point in the hiring process. I was first hired for a job consisting of extremely low skill manual labor and even for someone in my position it was made very clear what was expected of me from the very first phone screening.
SpaceX is an excellent example of how culture comes from the top.
I used to have a boss who complained that his employees turned up late or not at all for meetings. He would often turn up late or not at all for meetings.
I had another boss who used email excessively. His team used email excessively.
Elon Musk is mission-driven, work-oriented and puts in very long hours. Thus SpaceX is mission-driven, work-oriented, and people put in long hours.
It's all a matter of choice, I admire Musk and SpaceX whilst also appreciating many people want to spend more time with their family.
Just an observation to think on next time your employees don't exhibit the culture you'd like - the answer can often be found in a mirror.
I would also add that in general I think many people tend to think the grass is always greener on the other side. I’ve known both engineers and technicians who have moved on to “greener” pastures at more established aerospace/defense companies only to later tell me that they weren’t all that green afterall. I have a good friend who joined a large aero/defense conglomerate out of state to be closer to family and while the the pay pump was a nice feature at first, its luster wore off after a few weeks when he ran into some bureaucratic issues that he probably wouldn’t have had to worry about here. I also work closely with a fairly senior engineer who has a decade plus experience at JPL and Rocketdyne and flatly states that working here has rekindled his passion largely due to the relatively flat structure. He was absolutely worn out by all the middle managers he had to deal with previously. I think, and this is especially true at the more senior engineering levels, not necessarily for us lowly techs, having the ability to walk over to Elon or Tom Mueller and voice your concerns directly is pretty empowering for most and makes working here very unique in an industry that tends to put massive layers between engineers and management.
I’ll add a counter point so that I don’t come off sounding like a complete SpaceX shill and say that I also know people who have left and are very happy with their decision and their new workplaces, although many, in my experience most, still look back at their time here fondly.
I would also note that the space launch business inherently requires long hours due to its complexity and unpredictability. If you work in space launch, and are responsible for any flight critical operations, you will work the occasional 60, 70, or even 80 hour week, there is simply no way around it and it even happens at places like ULA and Rocketdyne.
This isn’t to excuse SpaceX’s sometimes poor planning and management which end up requiring more of these long weeks than should arguably be necessary, but sometimes it’s just a fact of life in this industry. Hopefully as the company matures hours and schedules continue to stabilize, it’s always frustrating to lose good people because they have to make the choice between spending time with family or work.
We are talking about a company which intends to send people on Mars. Really ?
:-)
Normally I would be critical of that type of workplace, which is how I feel about Amazon when the stories of that workplace are aired. But I give spacex a pass because they are aiming for something no one has done before. Busting some amazon coders balls to raise the profits of the company is a piss poor reason for stressing people out, going to the red planet however.
The fantasy is that work should be engaging, fulfilling, fun, and yet only moderately challenging, doesn't take too many hours, has you surrounded by ideal colleagues, with policies that fit you perfectly... you get the idea.
Reality doesn't work like that and it's so silly that people keep pretending otherwise.
And it IS possible for a freelancer to charge way more and get way better clients than an average salaryman, but that requires being able to deliver superior results. That's a responsibility that few people seem to be willing to take.
The central thing about either side of the fence is– nobody owes us anything, and it's up to us as individuals to negotiate for the conditions that we want.
I used to watch the live-blogs and then livestreams of Steve Jobs when he delivered his keynotes. It felt like seeing and hearing the future. Every new announcement was thrilling and exciting.
These days it's SpaceX's launches that gives me a similar feeling. A feeling of seeing and being part of something truly important.
If another company communicated in the exact same way it wouldn't be the same, because the story and the sense of importance just isn't there. I could imagine something similar being done in AI, robotics, prolongation of life, clean energy. But to be as great as SpaceX is, I think the mission needs to be something that resonates with us as being profoundly important.
Maybe someone wants to call me out and say that Apples products under Steve Jobs were not that important. But I'd say they were. iPhone, iPad - they changed our world. It's just now we've gotten used to it. I hope we'll one day get as used to people living on Mars! :)
It's hard for me to see it as important though, except as marketing for science education. Is that what you're thinking of?
I guess I'm asking because sometimes people seem to act like SpaceX is of humanitarian importance and I just can't see that. Not compared to like 10 other immediate existential threats to humanity anyway.
Unless you are talking about bottom as in 10 metres down. That won't protect you in case something goes seriously wrong.
Saying that the thread is about SpaceX and Mars and all I can say is "GO SPACEX!"
Hell, Zuckerburg, Yuri Milner, and Steven Hawking are already planning it:
http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/yuri-miln...
Maybe. What if it's an artificial plague? What if any other number of catastrophic events cause the collapse of the civilization here?
Having multiple settlements elsewhere is insurance.
And, while Mars is one interesting place, there are other rocks we could easily settle and mine for resources. I don't think Mars should be the first we tackle (I'd go for the Moon first) but I'm perfectly fine with humans spreading all over the solar system.
Ah but once Earth is no longer the single point of failure then the Sun becomes the single point of failure :)
I'm very excited about all things space and I hope SpaceX pulls it off
Speaking for myself I believe there is something incredibly unique in the way humans devote incredible amounts of energy to aspects of life that aren't inherently necessary to survival but nonetheless add to the richness of our lives. Art and music are examples of things that while not required for life, certainly make life more interesting.
The human drive to explore the places beyond the horizon and to expand our knowledge are things I would certainly describe as of profound importance, even if they don't have immediate direct benefits, although often times they do.
In the end I think JFK put it best in his 1962 speech at Rice:
We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win…
I wish. Most other companies can't do that simply because they have no grand goal worth talking about. It's understandable. I don't want my local bakery to talk about feeding the world, because I know their sole purpose is to provide for people working there in exchange for bread customers need. Most companies are like that, and it's OK.
Personally, I value honesty. I despise of companies that try to pretend they're doing something grand, or working towards some idea, when in fact they're just in it for the cash. Not trying to fix the world is totally fine. Pretending to do it for a marketing boost is not.
Letting a spider out of the house is a profoundly important goal. People just need to embrace their immediate work it is of the utmost importance.
And as I said, it's fine. But the most important way in which SpaceX is different than most is that for Elon and his company, Mars and space are terminal goals, while profit is only means to get there. It's exactly the opposite to how most companies operate.
In my experience, it wasn’t so much the long hours that wore thin on employees but instead it was the unreliable scheduling that prevented many people from making plans to enjoy their limited time off. There has been progress made in this regard as we have grown and gotten a better handle on some of our critical processes.
I should add that much like with anything else it’s difficult to please everyone all the time and not all of these changes have been well received by everyone. Overtime work for hourly employees is much more regulated and carefully watched now than it was a few years ago and I fall into a camp that isn’t exactly pleased with this. While I think the new changes are better for the overall well being of most employees there are many of us who specifically prefer an environment that skews more heavily towards work in terms of work/life balance.
Pay also tends to be lower than the industry average, especially considering living expenses in LA/Socal, but from what I’ve seen while introductory pay is low it tends to ramp up rather quickly once you hit the 3-4 year mark and is much more aligned with competitors at that point. This probably is at least partially related to the relatively high turnover here which means promotions and advancement can come quickly if you can stick it out.
I should make clear that my experience is coming from the perspective of an hourly technician that is compensated for overtime, unlike the salaried engineers, although in talking with many during the course of my day they seem to have a similar experience.
This seems to be a trend with Musk-run companies. Do they really attract people that are that dedicated to the mission? Or do they get a lot of people padding their resume, then jumping ship to somewhere that compensates more fairly with work/life balance?
http://www.geekwire.com/2016/payscale-ratings-rank-spacex-te...
Yes. Working for and with people who want to change the world is, in many ways, its own reward. It's definitely possible to get burned out, and you do work hard, but there has never been a week that went by where I thought to myself, "I'm not doing anything worthwhile here", or even, "I'm not contributing positively".
I used to work for a financial services company. I made 150% of what I make at SpaceX for at least as many hours a week. The difference was, at the end of those weeks, I would look back and realize that if I did my job right, I was doing nothing other than making rich people richer.
I'm working in Antarctica right now and my story echoes yours almost exactly. Worked for a large finserv company in a very comfortable position (telecommuting allowed, great benefits, etc) and took a 30% pay cut to come down here. But here I feel my work matters, supporting research that matters, where at the other job it was just a paycheck at the end of the day.
It's probably like any other successful company of its size... a few really hardcore people pull a lot of weight, in terms of both getting things done and defining the company's reputation, while some others just hang on for the ride.
Good management consists largely of identifying those few supercontributors and making very certain that they remain very happy.
I guess the danger is if we see Falcon 2020 that is the same as Falcon 2019 with new voiceovers...