speeddemon

There are some other comedians who would decide to make the joke as cruel as possible and start insulting people who get offended. The joke then becomes about how much they can attack those people and make them part of the outgroup. Those people are probably permanently lost as fans unless the comedian decides to change their methods.

For some reason this conversation frequently happens in terms of "public discourse" and "rights" but it all seems to be centered around a very small group of people, and nobody really wants to talk about the series of individual actions that led to this point.

Also, there are other wayland environments besides GNOME, so don't feel you have to use that.

Also the PNG format is extremely common and supports 32-bit color, so if you don't support that then you cannot accurately display PNG images, or any other RGBA format. Without this you're about 25 years out of date.

>Good.

Please avoid these snarky responses, this is not helping explain anything and will not serve to change anyone's mind.

>I HAVE TOLD YOU AT LEAST 4 TIMES: YOU NEED TO USE A STATE OF THE ART TERMINAL TO FIRST CORRECT YOUR MISCONCEPTIONS.

Please avoid the caps lock, this is also not helpful. I have told you multiple times: I don't have access to one of those terminals, so if you want me to use that, you will either have to try to help those other projects, or you will have to explain how this can be fixed to bring those projects up-to-date. You cannot seriously expect everyone to switch to your terminal of choice just to use a special version of tmux. If you're presenting a new version of tmux that you want to get adoption then you will need to support many terminals, not just your favorite.

And actually upon looking into this it appears that libsixel is what is doing the quantization, so this statement seems to have nothing to do with either of our setups at all. Have you modified your libsixel not to do this? Or is there some other command I need to type? Please explain these things instead of just telling me I have misconceptions with no description of what they actually are.

>considering you have been proved wrong

Well I'm happy to be proven wrong but you never did this despite me asking repeatedly. It was only explained by someone else in a sibling comment. This is why I suggest against making rants, in every single case I've ever seen a developer posting rants, it prevents the actual technical issues from getting explained. And your hostile responses towards me have actually further discouraged me from using sixel or from using your tmux fork, and even from trying out mintty eventually. This is not the way to be persuasive.

>You are pointing me to a 6 years old bug report about tmux eating sequences important to display sixels

No, this is wrong. The issue is about iTerm escape sequences, not sixels. Imgcat doesn't use sixel. Please make sure to get this correct, it's very important to your project. Also this bug report is not just about eating the escape sequences, but that the escape sequences cannot possibly be processed by tmux because they lack enough information to display correctly.

>Click on the url and you'll see a few demos, including the snake.six displayed in a wonderful example of 24 bit "truecolor" support.

This doesn't help, I mean a video that actually explains what is going on technically. You could make a youtube video that walks through the code and explains to other terminal developers how to do it.

>If other projects did not even support BMP, but only knew about drawing ASCII art with a 8 colors palette, yes, refusing to implement BMP in 24 bit mode as a first step, while spending 6 years debating the best way to achieve the perfect format that will have absolutely no drawback (chasing a wild goose) would indeed be a problem...

We already have better protocols than sixel though.

Open source in general has a problem with this, if it's left unchecked it leads to toxic behavior very quickly. That's my experience anyway. Traditional diplomacy doesn't help because some people seem to see open source as a "I can do whatever I want" type of thing, which it is. It's fine to do whatever you want in your free time but once you combine that with an attitude of "I will never change my mind or stop ranting" then is when it gets destructive and harmful towards someone who is trying to build a community and convince other projects to collaborate and adopt a shared standard. So if that's the goal then the ranting and bad attitudes need to stop. (Full disclosure: I'm saying this as someone who used to rant quite a lot, and damaged many relationships over it. It felt good for me but it made everyone around me become distrustful of each other)

If you want to downvote me again then that's fine, but if you have something to say then please reply. A downvote or an upvote can't mend a broken relationship like a strong conversation can.

Am I reading this incorrectly? It seems I was wrong, it supports 8-bit color, not 6-bit color. But that's still terrible, and every Sixel implementation I've ever used has spit out dithered images. The only terminal that is able to display full color images for me is iTerm, using the iTerm escape sequences, which are different escape sequences from sixel. So again, please help out with fixing this for me if you know how. Because so far you have not adequately explained what is going on here, or corrected any misconceptions, or helped to fix anything that is wrong with these terminals. And even the various libsixel examples seems to show dithering: https://github.com/saitoha/libsixel

If I'm confused then you could be in a great position to help me out, so please explain what apparently myself and the libsixel authors are both doing wrong. Then maybe at some point in the future I could help you out and return the favor.

And there are also other problems with the iterm escape sequences that I suspect will prevent you from correctly implementing them in tmux (see here: https://gitlab.com/gnachman/iterm2/-/issues/3898). So all paths point towards needing to make some new protocol for this. You may be in the best position to do that too.

>Intel macs can run Windows natively. You've also got your pick of emulators, from parallels to vmware, if you roll that way.

I'm not going to dual boot Windows or use a VM just to use a terminal emulator for a couple minutes, sorry. If you could just explain what that terminal does that's special so that it could be implemented in other terminals, or show a video, that would help.

>What you've written makes about as much sense as saying a drawing program should stop trying to support BMP format since it will have to be replaced down the line by JPG or PNG. gimp, paint and others support many formats. Nobody is complaining. People just click on open. They don't care about the underlying formats.

If GIMP was attempting to pressure other projects to output BMP files then yes, that would be a problem. I suspect other projects wouldn't go for that just because they asked.

>Try to use sixel to play videos in mintty, with 24 bit support so palettes aren't a problem.

You are confusing sixel with the iTerm image protocol which is different. Sixel is a really old and outdated, inefficient protocol that only supports uncompressed 6-bit paletted images. It would be best if we could just stop talking about sixel altogether, because this is not even what you're referring to anymore. I'm actually concerned that you're conflating these two, it would also best if you could be clear about this in terms of your project so it's not confusing as to what your project supports. Maybe the name should change from sixel-tmux at some point?

SSH compression is not going to be better than the image's native compression, you really don't want to rely on that to compress your images when we already have dozens of other better ways to transmit video.

>Not on mintty. I can change the font size up and down, it even resizes the sixels in proportion so the images remain aligned to the text in a pixel-perfect way.

I'd love to look into how that's accomplished but I can't use mintty because I use a Mac, sorry. I'm also not really interested in trying to mess with mingw just to get this set up.

This isn't FUD either, you're saying the terminals are bad, well, there is no terminal I can use that works correctly, I suggested to help out fixing the terminals if you know how and you basically said no. So what am I supposed to do? Part of making a good protocol is making one that is easy for the apps and terminal emulators to implement correctly, if that doesn't exist, then like I said you have to go back to square one. Adding this support to tmux is useful in some cases, but it still isn't going to help with getting the terminals to implement this right.

>In the future, sixel-tmux will intercept sixels live and rewrite them into other format, like iTerm or kitty.

This is a good idea, please do this instead of trying to get other terminals to adopt Sixel when they are just going to have to replace it down the line anyway.

I think VTE is fine if you don't mind development happening at a glacial pace...

>tell me precisely what doesn't work, in your own words.

I already explained it, I've used sixel in Xterm and Foot and I don't like it, the restriction to paletted images makes everything look bad. Also, changing the font size breaks the images. Also, the protocol is still terrible on bandwidth, if you use it to try to transmit 1080p video over ssh (as someone is bound to do) then you will encounter the same bandwidth issues. Again please read this issue if you want to know more about my stance, I agree with everything it's saying: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/terminal-wg/specifications/-/...

So sixel-tmux is not going to help me, sorry. It may even make things worse for me if apps are trying to use it when I don't want it. If you want some more suggestions on what to do to help, I can give those. But you're also welcome to not listen to me if you disagree. Maybe you have to accept that I am just not in your target audience, but that's no reason to accuse other maintainers of trying to hold me hostage.

Edit: I said earlier that I think it would be a good goal to support the various image protocols, I would be happy to use this if eventually an image protocol was added there that wasn't seriously flawed. But the apps and terminal emulators will still have to be changed to support that, so supporting sixel doesn't really help towards that goal at all, and in some ways it impedes it because those projects might be expected to maintain that as a backwards compatibility option. That's what I meant earlier, I think you may be approaching this problem from the wrong angle.

If these issues keep coming up, and you keep saying "sixel isn't broken" then we have nothing technical to discuss and it's going off into emotional rant territory. You have to respond to the actual technical concerns. In addition to all those things, the restriction to only paletted images makes it so I personally won't use it, it cannot be used to do any kind of accurate graphics. If you wanted to work on a new protocol that wasn't broken, I think that would be great too.

Also I think you are making more erroneous and emotional arguments when you say these things:

>And I question the motives of people associated with a project whose official stance is that it's acceptable to plan technical hurdles to prevent people from using themes

This is misinformation, GNOME is not preventing people from using themes. I can go into more detail if you like.

>I have no interest in wasting hours writing then submitting code to people who have put into writing the reasons why they are playing the clock against sixel support (as if I couldn't have read between the lines...), and who have said previously they would use their positions to veto the inclusion.

You don't need to submit any code, you could produce a fork as you already have done. Then once that's done, you could send it to someone else who could get it cleaned up for submission, if you were interested. Please don't fixate on fighting someone or arguing with one person's statements when the actual state of the project contradicts that.

>Don't be so focused on one format. There needs to be a foot in the door, after which other formats can be added. It's just a bootstrapping problem.

This doesn't make sense, the issue here seems to be the sixel protocol itself, and getting a foot in the door won't help when the format itself is broken. You would need to go back to square one in any case to design a new protocol. I think it's good to have a project that can convert between the different formats, but starting with a baseline of a broken format that doesn't work is just going to ensure that everything stays broken.

Also, using sixel to display animations seems like an extremely bad idea. You'll always get horrible performance that way. That to me seems just like it's growing towards a really bad and outdated reinvention of an X11 or RDP-style protocol. I'd say it's a mistake to pursue that.

>Maybe that will encourage the VTE team to do what the users want?

I posted a link to it, but VTE already has started adding support for Sixel.

I can't agree. Like most rants, I found it to be very needlessly emotional, lacking in the technical department, and motivating towards the wrong goal (trying to fight and argue with maintainers, accusing them of negative things like "holding users hostage", etc) rather than doing the right thing for users (delivering new and useful features in a way that isn't broken). I wish open source programmers would make less rants and emotionally-driven forks, it's not helpful to someone like me who just wants to get something new like images in their terminal. The issues in the GNOME/WT bug trackers are what actually contain technical information. And just from looking at that, it appears there is an open development branch for VTE that contains sixel support: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/vte/-/issues/253

So if you use GNOME, I would say just use that and work on that, the quality is going to be better than the degraded functionality you get from de-rasterizing. In my opinion, it would be better from a technical standpoint if the author just wanted to work on that, or wanted to work on getting it implemented proper in WT. The degraded-image approach used by this tmux fork is unusable for the cited use case of getting nice graphs in the terminal, and I can't see how it's going to make it any easier for those other terminals to solve the real technical issues with sixel.

Edit: I also want to respond to this comment in the rant:

>What will happen as Wayland replaces X?

Nothing? XTerm still works. But there is also a Wayland-native terminal called "Foot" that supports sixel, if that's your thing: https://codeberg.org/dnkl/foot

2nd edit: To those downvoting, please reply to me instead of doing that. If you disagree with me it would be better to know why so I could potentially change my view, a downvote communicates nothing of value towards changing my mind.

In my opinion, what you're asking for is an entirely new thing. You want an API for window management, but there has never really been a window management API on Linux, and every desktop environment was already doing its own thing. It has nothing to do with Wayland specifically. Under Xorg, the X11 APIs can sort of be hacked to do what you're asking under certain circumstances, and it might work ok on some window managers, but it's not going to work in every case. (And it doesn't play nicely with sandboxes either)

To get the human readable title seems like it would be an issue with how Mutter publishes the stream, i.e. not an issue with the portal itself. But I haven't looked into this enough in detail. I also don't know enough about your application to know why you would need the window sizes and positions. My only point is that if you intend to use that to draw an overlay over a screencast, or otherwise try to reconstruct what the compositing process is doing, then that's not going to be completely accurate. And it can't really be accurate without exposing various internals of how the compositor works, which puts any proposed API design back to square one...

It likely won't ever get an official Wayland extension, for a number of reasons. Screen capturing is inherently insecure and so it shouldn't really be happening over the Wayland socket. It also doesn't need to happen over the Wayland socket or be related to the windowing protocol at all, attempting to do it that way is just re-accumulating technical debt left over from X11.

>I fear that this means if flatpak does not need a feature, even if it makes sense in another context, it probably won't ever be implemented.

I wouldn't think of it so much as just flatpak, but the API needs to be usable from within a sandbox, and it needs to be done in such a way that it can be reasonably presented to the user.

>For example something I require for my project are proper window names and their position

This is a really bad idea, don't do this. This is guaranteed to mess with the window manager and run into any number of syncing issues with window sizes being reported incorrectly. It's also a misuse of the screencasting API. I checked the issues you posted and I don't think you're going to get much farther trying to hack around the API. If you want to do this right now then you'll have to integrate with the specifics of the window manager or shell. There is no way around it, I really doubt you will get much interest in doing it another way.