ptwobrussell

This is awesome feedback, and it's intuitively aligned to what I now know to be true about this space. (Alas...)

So many great points in here that I can't respond back in appreciation to all of them, but this one in particular is something that I articulated to a friend just last week:

> There has not been many successful fitness startups recently

Seems like there's a lot to learn and reflect on there!

I very much came at all of this from the product side of things (with gusto and confidence!), and it's only recently (perhaps far too late), that I am truly appreciating just how important the market is in business. (Sounds sooooo obvious in retrospect to say that, I know!)

I remember a phrase I heard a while back to startup tech founders that said something to the effect of "be sure you are working in fast moving water", which just makes so much sense...

And then there's Buffet + Munger's bias for betting on the market (vs founder)...

To say the last, I've at least scratched the surface of appreciating the power of the market in startups + PMF.

Awesome, thanks for offering. Definitely up for it. An easy way to reach me is my username at gmail.

Definitely makes sense to me, too! There' a clear customer profile, it solves a specific problem, and I could reach this audience with an offering with relatively little time + expense.

I also think you're right that a lot of amateur fitness enthusiasts like to train with/to "mil specs" because of the connotations of badassery it portrays. Can't blame them... :)

Great perspective here, I appreciate it!

I am very much still an optimist on the future of the app and my ability to monetize it.

As I synthesize much of this post and these comments, it's increasingly clear to me that I've just been operating too much in isolation, leaning more into what I know well (development) -vs- what I don't know as well (marketing in all its forms)

Now it's time to do some overcorrection and then step back and find the balance.

I very much intend to have a success story to post here one day as a new comment on this post about "how my startup barely dodged death but now I'm writing this update from the beach watching the monies flow" :)

> although most people that are into CrossFit will just go to a CrossFit gym...

Yes, this is seems to be the case for the most part, though I'm still exploring the "garage gym athlete" community. Turns out there are lots of garage gyms and a decent number of garage gyms have been outfitted by people who prefer/need to train at home, "ex-CrossFitters", etc. I think there's something here, but I don't have it fully quantified yet.

> edit2: and thinking about it more, I am not sure what will other "normal" gym people think when I do the AMRAP thing and jump around gym. Hm.

Haha. Been there myself. I find that it's important to build a small station with everything at arms reach in a "normal gym" setting so that it doesn't get taken by others.

In either scenario, though, you will be an outlier...but that's not a bad thing :)

Yup :)

The original inspiration for the app was when I was looking around the gym during one of the The Opens and listening to people 'strategize' about the workout. "Don't come out of the gate too hot", "Pace yourself", "Hit this many rounds/reps by this point on the clock", etc.

In other words, everyone was building a personalized "pacing plan", and it occurred to me that optimizing a plan to achieve a goal and delivering it through a digital experience was an idea I wanted to explore.

I've been a life long fitness junkie, and I really think that Greg Glassman's original blueprint for "quantifying fitness" as outlined in the CF-L1 Training Manual pretty much nails a winning formula for a lot of people. (e.g. the ones who are inclined to work out.)

The vast majority of the app experience itself (as well as a lot of the internal data architecture + software design that you'd never see or necessarily think about) is very much built around the idea of "workout prescriptions", "workout plans", "workout performances" and the "algebra" on those data structures that starts to quantify all of the splits.

You only need an iPhone to use the app, but the overall UX is a lot better (especially during a metcon) if you have a watch because you can just advance through the workout and track your splits with a tap on the wrist. IOW: start the workout on the phone, set the phone down, train, pick the phone back up later to get all of the analysis

This post and a lot of this dialogue has been TREMENDOUSLY helpful to me (both directionally and energetically) as I seek out a way to create a more focused experience in the app with a much more focused value prop (both in the app itself and in the marketing messages.)

Would very much welcome your (unvarnished) feedback if you decide to check it out and have any thoughts!

100% -- and the comments on this post have really helped me to find some more clarity and gain confidence in taking some more aggressive next steps in that direction!

I think you're right. Starting to up the social media game right now on IG!

Great thoughts here! I think you're right.

You wouldn't know it from the website (working on that!), but the app experience is more for "fit people who want to optimize their fitness and like to analyze their training data".

It's just been a tough nut to crack to find the right way to express that so far, but to the point of this thread and all of this dialogue, that's also key to the unlock.

I'm a former military guy myself, and I've been thinking about cloning + rebranding a version of the app that's super specific to "Training for military fitness tests". The more I think about that, the more I think there really might be something there.

Definitely. I'm also more a technical founder profile than not, and it takes real work for me to try to "sell", which is ironic, right? I (obviously) love this app, but to try and actively "sell" it someone directly. Gasp.

I've been making headway on that front too, though. A lot of content Alex Hormozi has been producing on sales + lead-gen has been really helpful to me on both a tactical level as well as a mindset level about these sorts of things.

This gets back to what I consider to be part of the "spiritual" side of the entreprenurial journey: facing my fears, slaying some dragons, etc.

Thanks! Good thoughts here...

I've considered 3 models:

1 - Standard B2C - Basically, what's out there now. Try to go after end users directly

2 - B2B2C(-ish) - Basically, what you're suggesting, go after coaches/trainers with clients and work something out so that they can deliver their programs through the app, collect info about compliance to the program, etc. To your point, it definitely seems like there could be something here, and I need to lean into this more.

3 - Whitelabeled Solutions - As I look forward, I'm also now considering the possibility of an approach of cloning the app, rebranding it, updating its content, making minor tweaks, and licensing it to 3rd parties who want their own fitness app. (Maybe a fixed license, but probably a rev share.)

I haven't really made any headway on 2 + 3, but I'm increasingly thinking about them.

To date, the most I've done is add a "nag screen paywall" in the app that presents a monthly subscription as an in app purchase. It's not enforced (yet), so it's more of an "optional" thing as crazy as that sounds -- but you're right: gotta start enforcing that, and soon.

FWIW, over the months, I've rationalized not enforcing it because I tell myself, "Need to get a small quorum of active users first, because the monetization won't really matter or won't add up till much until then...I need to find some signal from users and don't want to obstruct yet (yet)."

And even as I type that, I sort of believe it, but at the same time, I know it's not the best way.

So yeah, it's essentially free right now for the small number of users who use it. I'll probably learn something important if I enforce the paywall on that small number of users.

Amen! Thank for that encouragement. I think you are right. I need to be calculated and disciplined about it. A short-break would do me some good, and I'm sure my family would agree :)

This is a REALLY GOOD point of feedback. I have done literally nothing for ASO, and what you are saying reflects the reality that I don't see many organic downloads in the App Store. Definitely going to look into this!

On the iOS dev hours: yes, the $120 has been more aligned to seasoned talent with U.S. rates and the $80 has been more aligned to talent outside the U.S.

Great feedback!

A lot of the core UI/UX has been built around training to hit specific targets/splits for metabolic conditioning workouts, analyze those splits, etc. In other words, a _really_ fancy stopwatch that can do some analysis.

The app also supports weightlifting, endurance, and a broad interpretation of "constantly varied, high intensity, functional movement", but there's plenty to do there to improve the experience.

I've been thinking about the idea of making the scope of the UI/UX more narrow and focused on certain types of workouts, and I still am thinking about it. It's something I might try in the weeks ahead to see if "less = more" for a more focused ideal customer profile.

There's a good case to be made that the app is trying to do too many things for too many people right now : /

That's the second time I've heard about Mad Muscles just this week. I will definitely check it out. Framing a compelling offer is a gap I definitely need to fill, and I appreciate the pointer!

> ...but you did it, which is what counts in the end.

I can honestly say that I've come to truly believe that entrepreneurism is the ultimate spiritual journey -- at least it has been for me.

No matter how this chapter of my life ends, I like the person I am today 10,000% more than the person I was when I started, and I don't know that I could ever put a price on that.

In a post on another platform last week, I wrote something to the following effect: "entrepreneurism will burn off the mask that you're wearing and strip you down to the core" -- and I mean that in the best possible way.

When you are ready to build your app (and slay a few dragons along the way!), I'll be happy to be a resource to you however I can if you want to learn from any of my experiences.

It's all good, and I'm genuinely enjoying these interactions here on HN. Literally nothing to lose and everything to gain from the dialogue, and I do help it's of some benefit to others :)

Part of how I have rationalized my journey so far is that I have been building an app that I myself use almost every day, I genuinely enjoy the building products and working with my team, progress has been steady along the way, and I have unwittingly over-indexed on my own judgments as an "efficient proxy to the market".

I know that might sound crazy, but it's a bit like, "We're making progress, but it's not quite ready, so let's just keep building. I know this is good! We got this!"

In terms of more specific reflections and lessons learned so far, here are a few initial thoughts if I could start over again, knowing what I know now:

- Co-Founder: I would not do this over again without a co-founder with passion and expertise in for B2C product marketing. (Even to this day, I've never really had good access to someone who has successfully bootstrapped and monetized a non-trivial digital product app from scratch.) In addition to the moral support and general collaboration, this skill set would be complementary to my own. It would had the potential to be a great counterbalance in the overall approach to GTM and product strategy.

- Financial Accountability: I'd create some semi-formal accountability structures with "gating functions" for how/when funds could be spent on the product along the way. Conceptually, before taking on another 3-6 months of committed product work, make more aggressive contact with reality through user interviews. Much of the product evolution has been pretty fluid, organic, and linear based on small inputs along the way.

- Proxy Users: I'd recruit a small group of users (compensating them a small stipend if needed) just to stay active on the app (e.g. you're going to be working out anyway, so do it with the app a couple of times a week) and provide regular feedback about what they see that they like and don't like, what's confusing, frustrating, etc. Probably too much of the UI/UX has been dialed in from my own experiences, and there are some interactions that can be reframed to be more obviously valuable based on the input of others

- Likelihood of Success: I'd question whether the scope/complexity of what I set out to do as a solo founder with limited funds can really be achieved. For example, how likely is it that I as a solo founder can bootstrap a B2C consumer-grade iPhone + Apple Watch to profitability? And in what is considered by many a "crowded space". (It wouldn't be wrong IMHO to characterize a certain district of the app store as a 'wasteland of fitness apps'.) Should I be trying to bootstrap something this complex in this space at all? Or decrease the scope? Or consider a different financing approach?

- Resist Perfectionism: It might not be obvious, but keep in mind that I've been thinking about GTM a LOT. I just haven't been doing GTM to the extent that it now seems obvious I should have been. I have somehow been rationalizing that I just need to "build more" to get the product "more ready" before I start leaning into a space and set of activities I don't particularly enjoy and am somewhat uncomfortable with. (And instead, I've been continuing to do the things I am good at and comfortable with.)

- Less Isolation: And even as I itemize all of these things, I can't look back and think of any specific moments were I ever thought I was making an egregious mistake on any given day. Every day, I made what seemed like reasonable/good decisions with the best information I had at the time. Being less isolated and more integrated into a community of practice to share progress might have made a difference

Probably lots of other things I could say (and let's not forget there are lots of other draws on my time in life with family, etc.), but those are some initial thoughts that I can share.

If anyone bothered to read all of this, I hope it's of some help!

Over the course of a few years, I've easily spent more than $500k on the iOS + watchOS engineering alone. (Keep in mind that I started from a clean slate, there have been multiple iterations of UI/UX evolution, lots of iOS and 3rd party integrations to implement and troubleshoot, etc. (More on that below.)

To round out the figures, let's ballpark another $300-$350k on server + platform engineering, $80k on media + data + content acquisition, and then the inescapable overhead of the business itself (accounting, legal, etc.)

Contract rates I'm used to paying for solid iOS engineers have been anywhere in the range of $80-$120 per hour (big discrepancy based on where they're based and whether or not I'm working direct or through an agency), so $50k would have bought me about 10 weeks of sustained effort on the high end of that range. That's probably about where I was at when we finished the first working proof of concept with a designer + iOS developer.

Since then, for better or for worse, I can confidently say that I've spent more than another $50k just on "iOS debugging time". Probably more.

Lots of things to build out just in iOS land itself that can be more time consuming than they first seem for anyone who is interested:

- HealthKit integration - Location Services integration - WorkoutKit integration - WatchKit integration and implementing your own bidirectional comms between iOS and watchOS - Multiple AWS integrations (namely, Cognito and S3 but there are various Lambdas gluing things together and many, many more bits and pieces like CloudFront, Route53, etc.) - Custom in-app camera (and large file off loading to the cloud) - APNs - async I/O to/from our own server APIs

And more, those are just the easy ones to remember :)

It's been one hell of an adventure in iOS engineering land to say the least, and we haven't even begun to talk about things on the server side like data modeling. There's some really interesting stuff there as well, but that's for another thread ;)

Wise words, and there are good takeaways for me here!

It's time to land this version of the product, freeze the code for a while (sans major bug fixes), and get some high fidelity 1:1s with (who I think) my audience is.

Thanks for taking the time to leave me this reply. I really do appreciate it!

This is 100% valid feedback, and I appreciate that you took the time to share it. I'm at that point, where I need some "brutal truth" to help me navigate the next few steps...

I definitely need to update the language on the site to be a lot more precise and clear about these questions you've raised.

> This is what b2c PMF is about - about the fit (the click) in user's head.

That's a great takeaway nugget: gotta make it "click" in the user's head that this is built just for them.

That's awesome advice, thank you!

You are sharing some concepts and ideas I've been digesting, so that's encouraging.

> This is assuming that your app has any actual value it offers. If your app actually offers any value then achieving PMF is simply a Marketing/UX and distribution problem

I like that. Simple, clear, and actionable. Writing it on a post-it now :)

Preach! :)

I appreciate the thoughtfulness + candor of the reply, and I think you are right about these things. This is the kind of "real talk" that I need!

Sounds like that's a +1 for "go into code freeze, market it on the cheap, and don't invest more into product dev until there are some paying users"?

If that doesn't pan out after a reasonable effort, I'll have to start looking at options for liquidation or open sourcing it.

Financially, I don't need the app to produce income to keep my life on track...but the opportunity cost of continuing to sink so much time + life force into it is substantial (even in comparison to sunk costs), and that's one of the factors I'm increasingly thinking about.

I really like the idea of doubling down on getting high-quality interactive 1:1 feedback like you suggested, and that is something I can easily do on a daily basis to build more signal about how to dial in PMF in an intentional way.

I heard a quote once (Justin Kan, I think) that went something like this: first time founders focus on product; second time founders focus on distribution.

I might just be the extreme version of that quote ;)

Empire of the Summer Moon (S.C. Gwynne)

It's the story of the rise + fall of the Comanches in the late 1800s. So far, it's an unbelievable story, and if you're generally interested in the post Civil War era as the U.S. expanded into the west, you'll enjoy it.

Lonesome Dove (Larry McMurthy) is possibly my favorite fiction book of all time, and that got me increasingly interested in this time period.

I also started reading some of Cormac McCarthy's work after Lonesome Dove. Blood Meridian also takes place during this general time period, and it's possibly the weirdest book I've ever read.

Good thought! I haven't been rigorous about this yet, and that sounds like a tactical + practical next step. Anecdotally, I think I am currently churning most of the users. Do you have any thoughts on how many users would be a minimum threshold for a legit cohort analysis?

And it looks like the suspension is permanent per the update today at https://blog.scraperwiki.com/2014/08/the-story-of-getting-tw...

I'll definitely reach out. It would be fun to jointly tackle a fun problem together.

This post highlights that there are indeed some significant untapped opportunities in mining GitHub user and repository data. As I was working on the 2nd Edition of Mining the Social Web last year, I observed the very same thing and introduced an entire chapter that models GitHub as a interest graph. (Think: users are interested in projects and programming languages by extension.) The IPython Notebook with all of the sample code is available with all of the other source [1] but really just begins to scratch the surface with some rudimentary centrality techniques. Like any other interest graph, the possibilities are fairly endless.

[1] http://nbviewer.ipython.org/github/ptwobrussell/Mining-the-S...

I strongly considered the approach of releasing the contents of my recent book online with Mining the Social Web 2E [1] but instead decided to pursue what I felt was a standard OSS model: release a really high quality version of the source code that's optimized for easy learning in IPython Notebook format (optionally packaged as a turn-key VM) on GitHub [2] with the book being a form of "premium support" for the codebase if people want to learn more or dig deeper. I touch on all of this somewhat in the book's blog's "book as a startup posts" [3], and it seems to be working well so far.

I'm increasingly becoming interested in the prospect of releasing the entire contents of the book (both prose and source code) in IPython Notebook format so that you could read and work in the book seamlessly as "executable paper" like this full-text sampler of Chapter 1 [4] if it were hosted on Wakarii or a similar platform that offers a free tier. It really seems to me that this is the future of tech books: learning platforms with prose and example code integrated seamlessly.

[1] http://amzn.to/GPd59m

[2] https://github.com/ptwobrussell/Mining-the-Social-Web-2nd-Ed...

[3] http://miningthesocialweb.com/category/book-as-a-startup/

[4] http://bit.ly/IW3cbc