mogosselin

On big projects I work on, front-end developers start from the PSD and do the HTML first (they just do some templates, not the whole site obviously).

Then the JS is either made by them (depending if they know JS) or by a JS specialist.

Then the programmers integrate the HTML in the "code/templates" (CMS, whatever).

We develop in different web technologies and front-end developers don't learn how to code server side code (either they don't want to, don't have time, whatever).

Depending on the templating engine and programming language and final product (CMS, etc), they can or cannot edit or fix their CSS right in the final code.

Sometimes they need the programmers to tell them where the templates that they want to change are, etc. Imagine a big projects with hundreds of different templates made by a programmer, the front-end dev doesn't necessarily know where to change his stuff and if he's going to cause a problem elsewhere.

I disagree on that point. Web development is not the same as Desktop dev. Because HTTP is something you should know if you want to code solid and secure Web applications. If you don't know how it works, you'll end up with forms validated only with JavaScript, double submit because people are loading pages, etc.

Well I think that a beginner should try to do this by hand at first. Not necessarily in a production application, but to learn how it works.

The difference between Web development and desktop development is the HTTP protocol which is responsible for security issues and other behaviors (sessions, cookies) that you need to understand if you want to build solid applications.

Just the difference between client and server side validation is often not understood by beginners, which is a big problem.

If somebody rely on the framework to do all the job, he's going to have security issues in his applications and other weird behaviors (double submit when refreshing a page, etc.)

lol! you didn't code your own OS? ;)

Well, the goal of the post was to also demonstrate that frameworks, libraries and web development platforms are often called "Frameworks", which they are not.

When working on big applications (> 1 million), this wouldn't work. You need to think about it and you need to know how stuff works.

"The projects I know that were developed 'without a framework' are more often than not poorly structured, poorly documented, and difficult for new developers to learn their way around"

You are right! I didn't mean that I would like beginners to code 'Production Code' without any frameworks and do all their stuff themselves.

Especially if it's a big application, this would mostly result in 'unmaintainable spaghetti code'.

What I meant by beginners: "People learning to code", not "Beginners doing a production code without any help from more experienced programmers" ;)