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josh-pdap

78 karma · joined September 19, 2022

Executive director of the Police Data Accessibility Project, https://pdap.io.
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josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Clarifying: when I said "otherwise did not have "coworkers" or "co-volunteers" I mean only for a period of a few months. There have almost always been people in the Discord to respond if something came up, but there were many working sessions in a row where I was the only one to show up.
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
“working forwards” is a good phrase. Thanks for this whole comment!
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
I can only give my perspective on the project: I showed up when PDAP had 2,500 members in Slack, right after Kristin made her original case study and Reddit post. There was a flurry of conversation. I empathize with the people trying to keep everyone focused in those days. It was like trying to have a 2500 person web scraping flashmob with nothing planned in advance. However, all that conversation was important. We still benefit from the combined relevant experience of those 2500 passionate people.

I took a step back from the project for a few months, not having time to volunteer. My understanding is that the board was basically formed out of all the people remaining after some enthusiasm died down.

When I came back, the board had incorporated and applied for 501c3 status. There were four board members, and a few volunteers who mostly just helped talk through the massive problem and plan. Eventually Kristin (OP) stepped down from the board, but was still at some meetings. A rotating cast of 2-3 other people would be hanging around the meetings at any given time.

I became Director of Operations on a volunteer basis for a bit over a year. This mostly just means paying bills, knowing passwords, and updating the website.

We had weekly meetings, where we'd talk for a few minutes or hours about the project, our ideas, and what we could do to move things forward. [0]

We ran a data bounty during this time [1]. One volunteer, Eric, made a bunch of prototypes around metadata for data sources.

Then we got 501c3 status after waiting for almost a year. I quit my day job and started writing grants and set up online donations. I hired two contractors for a bit of grant writing help, but otherwise did not have "coworkers" or "co-volunteers".

We got the grant money [2] about 8 months later. I went looking for a full-time software engineer. I started getting a salary and working full-time on the project as Executive Director, doing all the non-technical design, planning, and product work.

Throughout, I spent a lot of time interviewing and doing design research: investigating the work being done journalists, transparency activists, and local data users in Pittsburgh (and elsewhere). I've also been collecting feedback and experience from everyone in the Discord. Most of our current ideas about what's important and where to start come from that work, and the recent addition of an engineer with excellent journalism and software experience (about 6 weeks ago) has allowed us to start prototyping and developing something together in earnest.

Now: We're excited about our strategies, and it's probably a little early for broad consumption. We didn't coordinate this post; everything you can see is a work in progress. There's lively discussion in Discord about our goals, and I've been typing for about 24 hours straight with a break to nap and a break to eat something.

[0]: https://docs.pdap.io/updates/working-sessions [1]: https://docs.pdap.io/updates/blog/7-14-21-bounty-retro [2]: https://docs.pdap.io/updates/blog/5-17-22-first-grant-awarde...

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Yes, I've linked to it other places on the page but Measures for Justice is doing that. https://measuresforjustice.org/infrastructure
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Yep, almost all the data is useful for one reason or another. The point is to paint a picture of police activity in general.
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
The FBI and other police organizations are certainly interested in using police data to make the job as safe as possible, for the police as well as the people they’re sworn to protect and serve.
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Thanks for all this. Articulating why it’s important in a few words is incredibly difficult and something we’re always working on. The bottom line is that we believe public information should be easily accessible; hundreds of thousands of people are using this data currently, all over the country. We’re trying to make their lives easier. I’ll take your feedback and use it to make our stuff better.

That said, if you head to https://pdap.io you’ll find the most concrete explanation we have. It still needs to be clearer, but it’s more specific than the docs.

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Interesting, what are you using them for?

Most of our scrapers are written by inexperienced volunteers so this is probably still quite valuable as is. If it works, we’ll take it.

You could also raise a hand as a human data source; perhaps one day someone will be looking for jail data from these counties and you could offer up some way to contact you. I gave my contact info to the person you replied to. Use it if you want!

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Yes! Police, jails, and courts. Those are all under the umbrella of criminal justice data, and all contextualize each other.

Could you share what you’ve made somehow? josh.chamberlain@pdap.io or discord are likely the best way.

Would also be curious to hear what made you take this on.

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
We definitely want scrapers to be maintained as-needed, as opposed to trying to spin all the plates. It’d be thousands of thousands.

Measures for Justice is working on developing standards: https://measuresforjustice.org/

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
We do want to be careful with PII. We don’t want to make a big table of PII, although tables of PII are regularly published to government websites as html tables. Yet another reason to keep data decentralized while pointing people to it from a central db of sources!
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me. As a non-engineer I think I’m following you.

When you say “I know what those people are capable of” do you mean something as ominous as that sounds?

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Thanks for wanting to help! If you go to https://docs.pdap.io you should be able to find out how to contribute Data Sources. No coding required. Holler in Discord or email me (josh.chamberlain@pdap.io) if you have trouble!
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
In our case it’s about working with local activists and journalists. Police are decentralized; each department acts independently, for the most part. Most people using the data seem to be using it locally; when policies are changed, they are changed locally. If the changes make a positive impact, sometimes other departments or governing bodies take notice.

I’d like to aim higher than a quotable statistic for a politician, in any case :)

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
I will say that we are not wading into this. We focus on accessibility; if you point to a big pile of ugly data, the first thing that will happen is that a bunch of very smart people will analyze it. We’re trying to make the big pile, which is currently in like half a million small piles.
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
I’m not aware of one. Tracking people is hard because names aren’t unique; it’s a challenge tracking officers as they move between departments, too.
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Your question makes sense. I’ve addressed this elsewhere but I’m currently just answering on my phone so I’ll summarize by saying that our focus is on complete, solid local data one municipality at a time (full context is really helpful when actually using the data) as opposed to any particular type of data.

That said, we still have work to do pointing people in this direction and helping them understand why. This whole thread is going to really affect our website and docs :)

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
We’ve looked at this and it’s pretty exciting! Have you used it? Know of any particularly relevant case studies we should look at?
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Tougher to answer, but maybe more useful, would be “What harm reduction strategies are being tried in other cities? Are they working?” this is at the intersection of policy and outcome and takes a lot of context.
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Thanks for the thoughtful response! This is really helpful.

1. Agreed. Our strategy for this isn’t clear on the website, I guess, but we do have one. It’s to focus on depth in geographic areas. This is because context is critical, and because most of the users we talk to are operating locally with municipal or county level data. So it’s more important to have every data source we can possibly find relevant to Pittsburgh than it is to have every arrest record in every municipality. Or at least, it’s more immediately useful to people.

That said, most people seem to contribute data sources from where they live. I think little microcosms will spring up where people take stewardship of maintaining information about their chosen geo or subject areas. Not too far down the roadmap, Milestone 2 for the PDAP heads.

2. I will take it as a next step to make this strategy clear and say why. We want to basically allow the community to make its own to do list: what kind of question are you trying to answer? That creates a “bounty” for data which can be fulfilled by an altruistic volunteer, another member of your team, etc.

3. Yes. We’re not trying to do apples to apples comparisons of departments yet, partly because it’s so absurdly difficult and you don’t know where to start. Why would you undertake a 12 hour research project to compare St. Louis and Minneapolis incident reports if you don’t have a use case? Instead we’re focusing on what we DO know we need: complete local data, town by town / county by county.

The data we collected reflects the nature of our early experiments, which were scattered. This airtable prototype is maybe 2 weeks old, next up is helping people understand where to focus.

The idea for demonstrating value is also local. I’m working with groups in Pittsburgh (where we are based, and where our funding came from) to make ourselves indispensable to them. I’m hoping to turn the $250k into a handful of killer local case studies in this year, rather than marking 0.1% progress toward a national vision.

Thanks again for giving me the practice explaining this stuff. I hope I’m making any kind of sense, and of course happy to hear where I’m still wrong.

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Thanks! I contacted them and I've been reinstated.
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Can you say more about this? Feel free to reach out to my email (josh.chamberlain@pdap.io) if you'd like to share more. It sounds like you have some expertise that would be incredibly useful to us.
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Aren't forums like this for devil's advocating, like, almost exclusively? Working as expected!

We've come a long way since that post in terms of strategy and focus. Most of that time was spent with between 1 and 3 volunteers, working a couple hours a week.

Transparency is a good goal in itself, I think. People are already using this public data, we're just trying to make it more accessible.

"Policing the police" was the original phrase used on reddit, but if you look at our website (https://pdap.io), that's not a phrase we use.

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
It's ok, this feedback is how we understand what our work looks like to other people, and how we improve!

We've only had paid staff for about 6 weeks. We've run several experiments and started from scratch a few times over the years. We've been slowly inching the project forward in our spare time; I was the only volunteer for much of that time, and I can't even code!

1. Sounds great, we're building something like this.

2. Even making a list of police departments is a big challenge. We've made a good start but have work to do.

3. Yep, soon we'll have something to query.

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
Thanks! It wasn't me who posted the article, but I agree with the theory that it's likely some well-meaning "new account spam prevention" thing.
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
We're still developing those relationships, and we haven't generated any novel data that is deeper than web URLs. I'm based in Pittsburgh so we're still working with local journalists, activists, etc. to understand how they use the data and how we can help.
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
What do you mean? I can still see it, but you can't?
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
We don't have any scraped data yet. I replied to the parent post addressing some of this, but mostly if people need the data they run a scraper locally and use the data that way. At the moment, our energy is going into building an app to help people submit and manage our database of data sources: https://docs.pdap.io/activities/data-sources/what-is-a-data-...
josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
I love that you wrote it on BART. I spent my year of BART time solving chess puzzles.

"Making public information public" is a good tagline too.

Do you know what kinds of work people did with the data? It seems to me one of the best ways to address BART crime would be to support the impoverished and desperate people who don't have any recovery or mental health support, but that work is slow...

josh-pdap··on I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data
1. I replied to the parent comment here; our answer to the scale problem is to recognize that people doing web scraping are as decentralized as the police. Our goal is to empower people who have questions about the police to answer them.

2. You can run them locally. We're not running the scrapers anywhere, or storing extractions anywhere.

3. This is a big, big question. Right now, the answer is dependent on the use case. Rather than trying to make the world's biggest database, we're going to respond to community needs and build this kind of thing as it comes up.

4. https://measuresforjustice.org/ is doing something like this! We're interested in creating incentives for police departments to make their data more accessible and transparent.

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