istingray

Privacy is a human right.

I support providers that believe this as well, and act in accordance.

Your model more treats privacy as something to be earned or attained through technical knowledge. No thanks. Journalists and whistleblowers need others looking out for them when no one else will.

If Protonmail doesn't solve this by the time my account is up for renewal, I will not be renewing.

"Services, services, services!"

It's a lie. Including in their home country of Switzerland. To buy a Swiss SIM card, you’ll need to provide proof of identity (such as a passport).

Ah got it. I support Protonmail because I believe in easy to use privacy tools for others like journalists, whistleblowers, and teachers. That's why I want Protonmail to be a leader in this space with clear marketing and communications.

Yes 100% this. Their mobile apps need to have a switch for "All connections through Tor", and that switch should be enabled by default.

Tor too slow? Speed up the ecosystem by setting up your own Tor nodes, Proton.

What's important for you about using Protonmail? Would any non-Google non-Apple email account suffice?

Until yesterday their homepage said "By default, we do not keep any IP logs".

That was unclear and has now been removed.

Maybe for you that's clear. But I use Protonmail to advocate for journalists, whistleblowers, and teachers, many of which are not security experts and not familiar with the twisted language used by Protonmail's marketing team.

If their marketing team can't come up with something better, just take text from the privacy policy verbatim.

Agreed, that's why I've asked Protonmail to promote their Tor page. Before yesterday the only mention was in their footer under "Onion site" and in a single blog post from 2017. They need to do better at promoting and supporting users through Tor. Heck, add it to their transparency report "40% of users connected through Tor, our goal is 90%"

> We are on a thread talking about them removing claims on their marketing material... that's abundantly clear to you?

As a Protonmail customer, thanks for saying this. There seems to be this idea that a blog post Proton made in 2014 is being "up front" about their policies.

Protonmail needs to do better.

Disclaimer: Paying Protonmail customer here

Protonmail has been dishonest in their marketing.

1. Their homepage stated ""By default, we do not keep any IP logs...". Due to complaints about this being a lie, they have today removed this statement

2. Their website also stated "No personal information required to create an account". However, for creating an account through Tor a phone number is required. This has been an issue for 4 years [1]

How could I expect Proton to disobey legal requests? That's crazy.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/638ykr/phone_nu...

Protonmail required me to enter a phone number to create an account.

I just did it yesterday. The text from them says "Your Proton verification code is: ######"

What's important for you about using Protonmail then?

ProtonMail requires a phone number for account creation through Tor.

"no personal information"...does it still say that? Let me know where, will email them.

Agreed, it's unsustainable for ProtonMail. They should operate out of China, and then build credibility from there. "Trust us" is not viable long term. In God we trust, for everyone else use math.

Not sure this would be a solution. In this case it seems like Protonmail wasn't logging IP but then was compelled to by law. So my assumption here is even if they stripped IPs, law enforcement could compel them to unstrip them going forward for an account. And that's what happened in this case.

That said, if there was a third entity that removed IPs for Protonmail, maybe that could get away with it. Kind of like how Tor is functioning.

China-Email: Would be interesting to buy email hosting from a super secure email service based out of China. Basically a "trust in math" approach where they operate despite adversaries. With huge claims on the website:

- No physical security: our offices don't even have locks

- Pro-crime-CEO: our CEO is a known (and future) criminal

- Political: we seriously try to read your email for the cops but we cant :(

- None of that matters because our protocol is open source, blockchain enabled, and it doesn't matter if you trust us at all.

Seems like a joke but you get my point. In God we trust, for everyone else use math.

Similar to Apple, Protonmail seems poised to redefine privacy as "privacy from advertisers" rather than "privacy from us too".

I for one am now only using Protonmail through Tor. Recommend Brave users enable "Automatically redirect .onion sites". If a site has an onion service, it will automatically redirect in case you forget.

So does any non-Google email provider meet your criteria then?

24 hours later, ProtonMail deletes "By default, we do not keep any IP logs".

I'll call that a win for all customers who emailed Protonmail about this.

HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28443449

In the decentralized scenario, the users are paying the underlying system as well as the particular itself. Check out Uniswap as an example. Users pay ether to run a process, and pay Uniswap a fee for the protocol.

I like that point. So in that example, is it possible to extend Signal to be used for long form messages in the same way email currently is? Will Signal eat email?

Protonmail increasingly seems like one of those Tim Ferris type scams. The one where you build a nice solution and write a bunch of blog posts...

And then you just let it run for 10 years without doing any more work and it just rots away.

I can't tell if you're trying to make the above poster's point or argue against it.

A blog post from May 2014 isn't sufficient, no matter where it's linked from.

This seems like a logical fallacy many Linux users seem to make.

I want the benefits without being a mechanic. And I'm willing to pay money for it. Lots of money.

Buried in a blog post from May 19th, 2014 doesn't meet my definition of "up front".

For reference, here's two I've found:

CTemplar: https://ctemplar.com/features/

Helm Personal Server: https://thehelm.com/

which part, "kneel" or "cash" ;)

The ask here is I'm paying $50/year for what amounts to a simple service. I expect Protonmail to lead when it comes to privacy and anti-surveillance online.

I've commented elsewhere in this thread with specifics.

Good on your for tracking their changes. Is there any official way to do this?

My inbox is open for a Tor-first replacement for Protonmail. Checking out https://tutanota.com/ now