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grinich

6,266 karma · joined February 23, 2009

Michael Grinich

WorkOS founder

mg@workos.com

https://twitter.com/grinich

submissionscomments
grinich··on Comparing Auth from Supabase, Firebase, Auth.js, Ory, Clerk and Others
Hey thanks for the shout-out. I work at WorkOS / AuthKit.

tl;dr - we know this feature is missing and we are working on it

Changing email address is of those simple sounding features that has a ton of complex edge-cases that are critically important to get right. The crux of it is how organization membership/invites and resource sharing typically works with unconfirmed email addresses in apps. What happens with the old email address? Can a different user claim it? Are you allowed to change your email address if your account comes from SAML/SCIM? If you get this behavior wrong, it will lead to inconsistencies that can even cause security vulnerabilities.

Solving this for thousands of different types of apps of course makes the problem significantly more complex. It turns out different developers actually want slightly different behavior, so we need AuthKit to be customizable to accommodate this. More than anything, want to avoid changing these APIs after launching them (even in beta) so there isn't developer thrash. We are working to make sure the solution is as complete as possible and that's taking longer than I would hope.

In the meantime we have some workarounds. e.g. popular apps like Cursor are built on AuthKit and work great.

Anyone can send me an email if you want to chat about this. We're also hiring if you want to work on it. :) mg@workos.com

grinich··on Comparing Auth from Supabase, Firebase, Auth.js, Ory, Clerk and Others
I knew I forgot one! Just added.
grinich··on Comparing Auth from Supabase, Firebase, Auth.js, Ory, Clerk and Others
SSOReady only does SAML. The rest of these are full identity solutions with the login box, email lifecycle, sessions, impersonation, users/orgs, RBAC, etc. Essentially "identity as a service" for your app.

It also seems like SSOReady is a yc pivot (single dev) that's just trying to clone WorkOS. Unclear if it's used by anyone in production yet.

grinich··on Comparing Auth from Supabase, Firebase, Auth.js, Ory, Clerk and Others
This article is 18 months old. There are even more options now!

    • Auth0
    • AuthKit (WorkOS)
    • Authress
    • Auth.js
    • Authentik
    • BoxyHQ
    • Casdoor
    • Clerk
    • Cognito
    • Descope
    • Firebase
    • Frontegg
    • FusionAuth
    • Keycloak
    • Kinde
    • Logto.io
    • Magic.link
    • ORY
    • Pangea
    • PropelAuth
    • Rownd
    • ScaleKit
    • Slashid
    • Stack Auth
    • Stytch
    • Strivacity
    • Supabase Auth
    • Supertokens
    • UserFront
    • Wristband
    • Zitadel
I work at WorkOS and we naturally think AuthKit is the best solution. It's also free up to 1,000,000 users and supports advanced features like SAML/SCIM/RBAC/etc. https://AuthKit.com
grinich··on Ask HN: Early B2B SaaS without features like SSO, OAuth login, etc.?
This is exactly what we built WorkOS for.[0]. I’m the founder and we launched on HN a few years ago.[1]

Our auth service is free up to 1,000,000 users. We charge for enterprise features. Send me a note if you’d like to chat![2]

[0] https://workos.com/user-management

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22607402

[2] mg@workos.com or https://x.com/grinich

grinich··on The Copenhagen Book: general guideline on implementing auth in web applications
Hey, I’m the founder of WorkOS (which makes AuthKit).

Would love to learn where we missed on the developer experience. Can you email me? mg@workos.com

We have hundreds of happy customers using AuthKit including high-demand apps like Cursor. Lots more features coming too.

grinich··on The Copenhagen Book: general guideline on implementing auth in web applications
we at workos wrote about it here: https://workos.com/blog/the-developers-guide-to-sso
grinich··on OAuth from First Principles
(plugging my startup- hope that’s ok!)

we’ve had lots of folks migrate from Cognito to WorkOS. Lots of more features, modern API, and better extensibility.

More here: https://workos.com/docs/migrate/aws-cognito

grinich··on An admittedly wandering defense of the SSO tax
The “human cost” of SSO is definitely the hardest part.

At WorkOS we solved this by shipping the whole config workflow in the form of an admin portal. It checks things like SAML certificate, signatures/assertions, attribute mapping, etc. and a zillion other edge cases across dozens of identity systems.

It’s pretty much “Stripe Checkout" for setting up SAML. Live demo here (click “Configure”) https://explore.workos.com/app/settings

grinich··on Launch HN: Stack Auth (YC S24) – An Open-Source Auth0/Clerk Alternative
What did you migrate to instead?
grinich··on Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source
Good questions! My answers (with footnote links):

> 1. Do workplaces or SaaS app providers not need Android or iOS app support

All identity providers are 3rd-party systems that authenticate a user via a web experience. They don’t have a direct way to submit credentials. e.g. In Okta SAML auth, your app redirects the user to a hosted Okta UI which verifies their identity and then redirects back to your app.

WorkOS supports this on mobile via webviews and custom URL schemes, so the redirect back can be `yourapp://callback` etc. This is simple enough to build that developers haven’t asked us for a custom Swift/Kotlin SDK. However, it’s still a good point you raise and we should add better docs. Will make a note.

> 2. What about OIDC?

WorkOS supports SSO via OIDC including Okta OIDC. In practice we have found OIDC much less common than SAML despite it being an improved protocol with fewer sharp edges. I’m not sure why this is other than legacy enterprise IT vendors being slow to change. Perhaps OIDC is 2x better but not 10x better.

There are lots of cool ideas to improve the world of SAML+SCIM including FastFed [1] but unfortunately they are stuck in a proposal/prototype state and have not yet overcome the coordination headwind of multiple vendors simultaneously launching support. I hope it happens someday!

> 3. Have you considered being the experience on top of AWS's Cognito…

It’s an interesting idea to build a better front-end to Cognito and similar platforms so developers can leverage underlying CSPs. In a sense this is what we’ve done with WorkOS SSO [2], which abstracts all the hairy bits of SAML behind a simple OAuth API. We’ve done the same thing with SCIM [3] by integrating all the various directory systems into a single API with modern semantics and predictable responses. WorkOS is like “Stripe for enterprise features.”

What I’ve personally seen is the innovation cycle for Cognito is glacially slow. As an example, at AWS Re:Invent last year there were zero sessions on Cognito and I couldn’t find a single PM to talk about the product. Perhaps Amazon will eventually ship something but today Cognito is clearly not a priority for them.

So instead we built WorkOS. We started with SSO and SCIM and then launched the Admin Portal [4] which makes IT configuration — otherwise a headache inducing process — an easy self-serve wizard. This design has been successful enough that we’ve attracted competition (and even some open source clones. ;)) Overall though I am glad to see more people working to improve the lives of developers building enterprise SaaS.

In the last couple years, WorkOS have been expanding our product into other areas of the IAM stack. Last year we launched a fully-managed identity service called AuthKit [5] which includes powerful features like session management, impersonation, and RBAC. AuthKit is an alternative to Auth0 but it’s free up to 1,000,000 users.

A few months ago WorkOS acquired Warrant (YC S21) [6, 7] which provides a fine-grained authorization (FGA) service inspired by Google Zanzibar. This enables developers to model even the most complex data authorization with a single runtime. Warrant is open source and is an alternative to AWS Cedar, SpiceDB, and Oso, and other. But it has some differences, such as the “edge agent” which allows permission checks to be evaluated locally within your app. Super fast, no HTTP requests required. [8]

We also love open source. WorkOS builds Radix UI [9] which has something like 30M monthly downloads and powers the design systems for Linear, Vercel, and others. I even considered starting WorkOS as an open source platform. But what we heard from developers was that code was only part of the solution. They wanted a service that included ongoing support and dependable uptime. They want to just pay and make the “enterprise problem” go away. That’s what WorkOS does.

We’ve found smaller startups are also fine to pay for features like SAML and SCIM because they enable selling upmarket and unlocking enterprise revenue. Often startups will just pass on the WorkOS cost in their own enterprise contracts. Our pricing is usage-based, transparent, and easy to understand. And it doesn’t require clicking “Contact Us” and negotiating with a sales rep. [10]

Building a layer on top of other IAM/CSP systems initially sounds appealing, but ultimately I don’t believe it will let us achieve the goal of providing the best possible developer experience with the most robust features to users. To do this right we need to invest deeply in the technology primitives. We’ve raised $100m and today have hundreds of customers and millions in revenue so we’re well on track to solve this problem for everyone.

Hope this adds more color. Happy to answer other questions here or via email anytime. I’m mg@workos.com

[1] https://openid.net/wg/fastfed/

[2] https://workos.com/single-sign-on

[3] https://workos.com/directory-sync

[4] https://workos.com/admin-portal

[5] https://authkit.com

[6] http://warrant.dev

[7] https://workos.com/blog/workos-acquires-warrant

[8] https://github.com/warrant-dev/edge-agent

[9] http://radix-ui.com

[10] https://workos.com/pricing

grinich··on Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source
Hey there - I’m the founder of WorkOS :wave:

We have automatic volume discounts for pay-as-you-go users, and even lower prices on annual plans or custom contracts. We also have free credits for early-stage companies. Feel free to send me a note if you’d like to chat: mg@workos.com

Today hundreds of companies use WorkOS, including a ton of startups you probably know: https://workos.com/startups

grinich··on Looking for alternatives to auth0, Eartho and Firebase auth (user login service)
more secure, better b2b support (saml/scim), more reliable, and cheaper

WorkOS is already used by hundreds of the fastest growing companies https://workos.com/customers

grinich··on Looking for alternatives to auth0, Eartho and Firebase auth (user login service)
(plugging my startup)

have you seen https://workos.com/user-management

full auth0 alternative and free up to 1,000,000 users

grinich··on How does Single Sign-On (SSO) work?
Small plug for my startup (hope that's ok!!)

This is what WorkOS helps solve for developers. It's like Stripe for SAML (and other enterprise features)

https://workos.com/single-sign-on

Happy to chat with anyone who's interested! mg@workos.com

grinich··on Software Company HashiCorp Is Weighing a Potential Sale
SCIM too.
grinich··on Ask HN: No-code, simple-setup user management
We don't want to lock folks in. You can export your data at any time.
grinich··on Open Policy Agent
Is that issue with Cedar related to their design or just the current way it's exposed by AWS?
grinich··on Ask HN: No-code, simple-setup user management
Check out WorkOS (I work there. Email in my pfoile if you want to chat.)

https://workos.com/user-management

grinich··on VATSIM: The International Online Aviation Network
Not OP but I can share...

At KPAO the main thing to know is 1) on departure turn 10 degrees right after clearing runway for noise, and 2) they will often extend the pattern for more space when it gets busy. On the departure/upwind leg, they may extend you to the train bridge or the auto bridge (Dumbarton bridge) before you turn crosswind. On your downwind leg, they may extend you to the amphitheatre, which is the white tent looking thing near Google. This actually runs into KNUQ (Moffet) airspace but the controllers coordinate this so it's fine. And don't extend unless they tell you!

For KSQL, new pilots mostly get tripped upon the departure procedures. You can fly the Hillsdale departure, Oracle departure, Coyote Hills departure, or Woodside departure. KSQL is a short hop from KSFO and under their jet approach, so the procedures are intended to create more predictable incoming/outgoing traffic. Annoyingly, these departures are not charted and instead published as part of the "voluntary noise abatement procedures" by the airport. You can read them here (PDF) https://www.smcgov.org/media/57331

Both are great little GA airports. I learned to fly with West Valley Flying Club and wholeheartedly recommend them. Friendly pilots and a supportive community. If you have questions, just pop into their office and you're likely to find someone you can ask (and get stuck talking about airplanes for an hour :)).

grinich··on Multi – Multiplayer Collaboration for macOS
What can go wrong? What are common issues?
grinich··on A former Gizmodo writer changed name to 'Slackbot', stayed undetected for months
This is why most SSO forces you to sign in again every day. So frustrating!
grinich··on A former Gizmodo writer changed name to 'Slackbot', stayed undetected for months
The data only comes during the sign-in flow. If you want to change it dynamically outside of that, it's typically done via SCIM.

For anyone curious, we wrote a blog post all about this. https://workos.com/blog/the-developers-guide-to-directory-sy...

(I work at WorkOS.)

grinich··on A former Gizmodo writer changed name to 'Slackbot', stayed undetected for months
Shameless plug for my startup (hope that's ok!)

If you're building an app and need to add SCIM, check out WorkOS. My email is in my profile to chat.

More info -> https://workos.com/directory-sync

grinich··on Auth0 OSS alternative Ory Kratos now with passwordless and SMS support
Have you tried WorkOS? It’s built for exactly this, with native support for SAML and SCIM.

https://workos.com/

I’m the founder. Would love to hear your feedback and happy to answer questions.

grinich··on Figure out who's leaving the company: dump, diff, repeat
The answer to this is SCIM, which allows an app to sync the user state with the identity/directory system.

IT admins call this "User Lifecycle Management" and it's typically a required feature for enterprise-scale customers.

(I work at WorkOS and we help developers with this: https://workos.com/directory-sync)

grinich··on The Road to RBAC: Evaluating and Implementing Authorization Systems
Small plug for my startup (hope that's ok!) -

If you're looking to sync roles from a SCIM directory (like Okta or Azure AD) this is super easy to do with WorkOS. Already being used by Vercel, Planetscale, Loom, and others.

https://workos.com/directory-sync

grinich··on FAA Aviation Maps
Technically these are referred to as "charts" and not maps. :)

Another fun (and free!) resource is SkyVector, which automatically stitches them together and has tons of useful features for flight planning.

https://skyvector.com/

grinich··on Tailwind color palette generator
thanks - looking into it
grinich··on Tailwind color palette generator
Radix Colors has a ton of accessibility stuff built in.

https://www.radix-ui.com/colors

(I work at WorkOS and Radix is an open source project of ours.)

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