Why?
To add to it, did you hell-ban me? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14525098
That had 3 points.
82 karma · joined March 19, 2017
To add to it, did you hell-ban me? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14525098
That had 3 points.
But the brutal world of supply and demand, no one cares about your feelings, honesty, or character. Which is why you are, in my opinion, a victim of code camps.
Did you ever read there was a skill gap for programmers? A shortage of programmers? You were lied to. Completely and totally.
> my problem is I need an income. What you're giving is resources for learning above, but that is not where my choke point is.
And here's the problem with that. Codecamps are also destroying the job market on a macro level too.
We're placing, what, 1000 new junior javascript/ruby grads into the job seeking pool every 16 weeks?
That's stacked on top of what, thousand of other code camp grads who didn't land a job?
And how many positions do you think there is to fill? Maybe in USA, 500 or 800, and most of those want prior work experience.
Not to mention that employers are using H1B's as a way to get cheap labor. There's no end in sight.
You should demand your money back, contact the FCC and a lawyer.
You should demand your money back, every penny.
> I can only look to my choice of bootcamp
Bootcamps are not gatekeepers. They portray themselves as such to take your money.
There's no such thing as an elite bootcamp. It's a lie to pray on your naïveté of the industry. It's just ruby and javascript. It's web development. Nothing magic. Nothing elite here. You could teach it in a community college setting for 2k a semester.
But every town needs electricians, plumbers, doctors, etc. It's just frankly, we're pouring out more junior programmers desperate for jobs than there are positions to fill. Every time a cohort finishes, it's 30 more people on top of the thousands of others seeking a handful of positions.
They end up creating junior level programmers, and cherrypicking success stories from people who have already coded before.
> that crushed my dream of working in tech.
Nothing's stopping you from:
- installing Linux (https://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop)
- downloading Atom (https://atom.io)
Using these resources:
- https://github.com/prakhar1989/awesome-courses
- https://github.com/EbookFoundation/free-programming-books/bl...
- https://github.com/ripienaar/free-for-dev
Maybe you would be a good programmer if you continued studying, maybe it's not your path.
I don't know you, but don't be fooled into thinking that any institution or person is a gatekeeper from you coding and getting a job in it. These code camps want you to believe that so they can justify their existence.
You don't. Recruiters could also mean the people who pour over resumes when people apply for jobs.
The intention is whoever is looking over resumes will overlook candidates merely for attending a bootcamp.
Need proof?
A couple of years at startups where the hiring bar is lower. A couple of github projects. A couple of presentations at local meetup groups.
And having a really really good interview when you get to the whiteboard.
You don't need to pay a school to learn to code.
The sad truth is, there are recruiters who will throw out your resume if you associate with bootcamps. Why? Because the quality of the programmers they generate is low.
Code camps run like mills. From stories I've heard, they pay instructors as contractors below market rate (20-50k, long long hours) and throw them away with no severance.
That's not even to speak about those who forked over $16,000 you'll never hear of here because they're too embarrassed and afraid they'll get jumped.
Worse, try mentioning anything critical on Bootcamps and they'll create sock puppet accounts to downvote you, harass you and so on.
If you don't believe me, go on /r/cscareerquestions or quora threads mentioning bootcamps. They'll have coursereport.com shilling and trying to keep you from the reality:
You can learn to code on GitHub for free.
You can host repositories on GitHub for free.
You can download Atom (https://atom.io/) and Visual Studio Code (https://code.visualstudio.com/) for free.
You can download Linux for free (https://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop).
You can watch MIT/Stanford/etc. Data Structures and Algorithm courses online for free: https://github.com/prakhar1989/awesome-courses
Free Programming Books: https://github.com/EbookFoundation/free-programming-books/bl...
Free development services: https://github.com/ripienaar/free-for-dev
And you do not need any college or bootcamp to work at Amazon, Microsoft, or Google.
Seriously, just grab a copy of Cracking the Code Interview.
Nothing adds up.
I've never heard of their products before. And they've been around for a heck of a long time in these boards with these salaries, and there was no SEC Form D's back then.
Also, check this out: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/blackstorm-labs
They claim to have 33.5M funding. It's been 9 months, I can't find the SEC filing.
There is "news" about Game Closure raising 12.5 Million, but I can't find an SEC filing.
Weeby, can't find a anything.
> I can see how you’d be bummed spending the time without the expected outcome...
I think a lot of "honest people" have contacted these guys on these threads over the past year.
They mention on their website (http://www.weeby.co/jobs.html)
> Hand-optimized assembly drawing routines for arm6/7 > Create a particle engine which maps to webgl shaders, pure Javascript, or optimized C > Rebuild backwards compatible Android APIs > Context-aware code parser for automatic internationalization & localization code parser > Analytics platform, terabytes of data every week, real-time processing. > Scale real-time notifications and chat to hundreds of millions of game players > Create a particle engine which maps to webgl shaders, pure Javascript, or optimized C
Meanwhile, look at their weeby's GitHub: https://github.com/weebygames
Terabytes of data from what? Hundreds of Millions of users?
Look at their games: http://www.weeby.co/games.html. Some of them were also taken off the store. Others have less than 100 ratings total.
"The item you've requested is not currently available in the U.S. store."
And let's see game closure: https://github.com/gameclosure, here, they actually have something that's not a fork: https://github.com/gameclosure/native-android
It appears they were outsourcing. In addition, they were hiring programmers in Vietnam: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/tappy-pte--ltd-#/ent... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12407125
But what about js.io?
> js.io is a new IDE for HTML5 Apps / Games, AR, VR, Minecraft mods, Arduino, IoT, and more, targeting javascript as a common language. We provide developers their own persistent container, a beautiful end-to-end development experiences, r remote-over-LTE (sic) debugging, one click publishing, and carefully polished community support. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12204213
So... where's the IDE for Minecraft mods, Arduino, IoT... it seems to be an IDE that does everything! Through javascript, remember: "Cross-compiling javascript to other languages and vice versa". OK? Where is it? https://github.com/blackstormlabs? https://github.com/weebygames? I see forked repos of Flask and React. How is that going to get you transpiling for Minecraft mods, arduino and IoT? Let alone the abstraction to the API's.
Take a look at the "js.io": https://github.com/gameclosure/js.io. It even links to js.io in the description.
> js.io is a multi-platform package management and module system for JavaScript. js.io modules can be evaluated in a JavaScript runtime (e.g. node.js) or precompiled into a single package for use on the client side.
Here's the game "dev kit" (the real js.io?) they were touting so highly? https://github.com/gameclosure/devkit
It hasn't been updated in over a year, but it does have 600+ stars. No sign of the millions of players, no hand-optimized asm drawing routines, context-aware code parsers or terabyte analytic platforms.
Nothing adds up.
I look forward to an explanation of where these SEC filings for Game Closure, Weeby and Blackstorm are at. Also, where are the "terabytes of data every week, real-time processing" analytics. The "hundreds of millions of game players". Where are the hard core "Hand-optimized assembly drawing routines".
According to Glassdoor, this employer's salary to an engineer is 97-104k.
According to the Department of Labor, you are paying an engineer 102k/yr (https://lcr-pjr.doleta.gov/index.cfm?event=ehLCJRExternal.ds...) It says Mountain View. Begin date 09/01/2017.
Could you explain the discrepancy or please correct your salary information so people don't waste their time interviewing when it's not your intention to fit the salary you specified?
Not trying to cause a scene, but interviewed for a few places with high salaries and after sincerely following their interview process, realized they were just giving a widely inflated salary to get resumes in.
It may be a "junior" engineer. But still, you're posting 140k as a minimum range in the post currently when glassdoor says 97k and DoL says 102k.
Maybe I'm mistaken. Not making accusations, just want to give you a chance to clarify things.
Don't care if it's Python (basically pseudocode), Javascript, Haskell or Erlang.
For all the time Haskell commenters turn criticism into a Socratic dialog, they could be considering ways to make their code digestable. It's been what, 20 years now?
Not just to non-haskell programmers, but all the haskell programmers I see swarming around threads like these on the internet; you'd think they'd actually be teaming up and collaborating with each other. I can't put my finger on it, I think there's a trend, a feeling, that it's not suitable for programmers focused on achieving business ends. It's more of a hobby thing
Programming in the enterprise means confronting the reality that there are design trade-offs and someone else has to read the code. Haskell programmers seem to go off the deep end trying to pull off a hack of making haskell work a certain way, then its "pencils down", sayonara. The real world doesn't accept that, programs have to be maintained by others.
Document the Haskell code and not stuff so much logic into one line. I think that's a fair thing to ask for in software engineering.
Anyone who complains about Haskell seems to have either a.) not programmed it b.) weren't programming "correctly" c.) a xenophobe/blub/NOS
I know what lambdas are, I know there are functions and folds. That in and of itself doesn't tell the story of the data that's actually being manipulated and the expected output. So that's why you have a 20-30 line comment block explaining what's going on in important API functions.
You could program python, JS or ruby similarly; wrapping multiple functions on the same line until you have to actually trial each function to figure out why your not getting an expected result. It feels clever, at the moment, but we don't do it because we're not helping colleagues understand it.
> You're not willing to learn the language because you don't understand it, and dismiss the language as having no value because you don't understand it. Is that really fair without at least having a basic understanding of the language?
The commenter was heralding the project as a "great example" of "real-world haskell" and recommended contributing to it. I was shocked to see 8k stars and a paltry 50 contributors; of which, only the top 10 have contributed over 100 lines of code. That's half the contributors, proportionally, to something like neovim or redis, and even worse compared to node.js projects.
And, I looked at the code of the project, which is open source, and didn't see code documentation.
I'm trying to be generous. My advice: stop packing the code so close and document it, probably more than normal, since the symbology in their is highly dense.
It's hard to read. Very messy.
https://github.com/begriffs/postgrest/tree/master/src/PostgR...
Despite 15 years of programming experience in python, js, C, etc. I feel like I'm going to have to duck my head down to be chastised for not understanding the language and not being "intelligent" enough to see the depth.
It looks like jibberish, to me. Not trying to be offensive. I'm sure the person who written it had it make sense to them. You likely also notice, a lack of code documentation. Bad form. Don't tell me it's because I don't know haskell, that's why I'm not expending the time to learn it, despite the buzz.
Meanwhile, SQLAlachemy and Hibernate isn't reporting complaints and a human being could actually parse it to understand what the hecks going on there. And despite it being Python or Java - easier and far more widely adopted languages - they're documented extensively, the authors didn't solipsistically assume others would "get it".
Which is a pattern I've been seeing with hardcore functional advocates in communities. They are the kind of people who'd work 2 weeks on a paper for a mathematical proof, shove it to you in the hallway to look smart, and say "It's obvious". It's not, you're just trying to show you're smart, but no one's understanding you - and that is important in you winning people over and not looking arrogant.
> It's concise for the amount of functionality it offers
Make it 4 times as many lines. Because there is so much condensed inside of this.
>8k stars. Less than 50 contributors. Of which, only the top 7 changes more than 100 lines.
If this considered a real world haskell, it's no wonder there's not a lot of people using it.
It does more to demonstrate functional programmers lack empathy for enterprise ones. Because even with solid grasp of CS concepts, even Haskell's own proponents are having a hard time stomaching contributing to it.
These Haskell and Scala people talk talk talk all about correctness and syntax tricks. Meanwhile golang is nimble and just winning every race. I wish they'd learn from it rather than get so defensive.
Also, it's just a confirmation people get too attached to complicated features in languages as a crutch. YAGNI
Programming can be straight-forward and clear. Without it spiraling into a contest of clever tricks. You look clever when you get product out the door.
I've been programming 10 years professionally, and 15 years as a hobby. I've yet to hear what a sum type is until yesterday.
I got nothing wrong with people dabbling and hacking on the weekend, but sometimes it irks me when people split hairs over being "correct" and never actually get stuff done.
I think a lot of the "syntax tricks" is a mechanism used by people to feel superior. It's like, "hey if I can't actually build something useful, at least I can blog about how to write a monad transformer".
I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just failing to see the value in this and trying to make sense of what I'm seeing. Where was the business issue that could only be solved through sum types in the language syntax? Enlighten me.
Also, I looked through your history, you're a Haskell programmer. Due to the context of my thread, I'd appreciate it if you disclosed your relation so others know.
> AwesomeWM lists Lua as a feature
It's a scripting language on top of that's used for configuration.
> It's pretty similar to saying "code has been tested extensively by our quality assurance team" or something "code has been formally verified,"
The problem is Haskell developers aren't really getting enough shipped, especially relative to the advocacy I see of it. So how much does code correctness matter?
Look, let's say I want play FreeCiv. It being programmed in C vs Haskell vs Erlang doesn't mean much to me.
But imagine if FreeCiv lacked basic functionality or code documentation, and when people mentioned these things they'd get jumped by people who advocate it being programmed in an esoteric language who look down on those who program C as unsafe, inefficient, etc.
> So you haven't made up your mind already by criticizing Haskell before even evaluating it as a language? It's not making up your mind on it when you based all your judgements from personal anecdotes of Haskell and Scala programmers you've met before?
Hugo vs Pandoc
Awesome/i3 vs xmonad
You want to know why these solutions got more popular than the their Haskell predecessors? They had devops like documentation and tooling down. They picked languages that were easier to read so the community could participate. The discussion was about how to ship features by a version release, not how to force the language to get a purely internal technical working.
Users can't see the internals, so they don't care. They want something that's there for them on time and reliably. In all these years to this day, there's been more advocating Haskell philosophically on forums than there's been real discussion about getting stuff shipped. Try saying that for node/go/ruby/python.
Then blaming me for being biased as if you don't already have a conclusion derived. This is the behavior I experienced - to me, this feels like projection and trying to bully me into silencing what I truly witnessed. It really bothers me and makes me uncomfortable.
I'm just stating my experiences. You wanna know why I use a throwaway? Because people bully and bludgeon anyone who doesn't praise Haskell and / or Scala. And it's been unique to those language communities.
At the end of the day, your reaction is predictable. I'm not reading too deeply into what you say because, like my prior experiences, I think you have your mind up, and in spite or proof given, you're going to be on the defense / offense.
> Any ML-family compiler will catch more crap at compile time than any C compiler...
None of these things about language mattered since awesome and i3 had language as an afterthought and focused on experience. xmonad literally has haskell mentioned as a feature, the token battlestation pic (which is pretty cool) even has a haskell book next to it. Xmonad even uses haskell for the configuration of it.
Look, not trying to take a jab at hobbyists. It's just I'm saying, in my experience, I found Haskell and scala "hobbyists" to be quite mean and it hurt my feelings alot, especially when I dropped, far more politely than when they ever spoke to me, the news they're not focused on business goals and work product and just refactoring stuff over and over. They kind of failed at bringing product vision to light, even basic things like defining requirements felt beneath them. Again, maybe I've just been unlucky.
I looked in your history and yup, you are partial to Haskell. Why do you feel a need to immediately judge. Why did you say "hard to take seriously". Why didn't you just ask politely for more details? In my opinion, you already had your mind made up. Just like the blog poster did.
> I tried awesome for two weeks and had one crash. I've run XMonad for 5+ years and had no crashes.
That's your personal anecdote. There's no evidence that the language could have prevented the crash.
And that doesn't make the window manager "better", which is subjective. What are more people using? Awesome and i3. Primarily because they don't want to deal with Haskell when they could be doing lua or a simple config.
Something about Haskell strikes me as different. Despite the buzz about it, I don't see many projects for it other than shellcheck, pandoc and xmonad, and for two of those, there's better solutions around (sphinx, awesome/i3).
The other thing is the general flow I've see with Haskell programmers, many really tie down their identity do it. They see programming as a crossword puzzle for them to solve in short term, not as something other programmers have to read later on. They're not very empathetic to the idea the runways dwindling and you have to ship sooner rather than later.
In addition, I found that the Scala / Haskell developers I knew took golang to be quite the nuisance. They find gophers pesky. I think the reason why is years of Haskell teaches them to overengineer and complicate things needlessly. It's frustrating because they're not aware of it themselves and take offense, even blame you when you point it out to them.
Maybe I've just been unlucky. In 10 years, I've never had people who consistently failed to ship, been mean and arrogant as scala / haskell programmers. They take the slight criticism as an assault on their identity.