eddtries

You're right, I didn't write my original point very well. I'll blame it on Covid and rambling from bed lol.

Has there been a strike against a political party in Nordic union history?

That isn’t what’s happening here, it’s unions striking. Employees can’t just do this randomly, it has to be part of an organised strike which is fairly rare. Once the strikes in place the private employees (not civil servants) who belong to unions will follow recommendations of actions.

Perhaps? But everyone I've spoken to have been pretty vocal about it, although more along the lines of "Musk is a tool"

The Tesla Model 3 is like $75k out here so it's not much more!

This would be true if there were not repercussions for the wider Swedish model, but since there are repercussions of rolling over it is Sweden vs Tesla

Unions set the lower bar but if you want to be competitive you still offer higher rates. I guess Musk could sign this and give everyone a pay cut!

Yup, and one is the principles of a large car company from another country while the other is the social underpinnings of the countries entire labour market going back a century

Polestars are pretty nice!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polestar_3

> I'm saying that it's not a strike if you're just refusing service to a customer.

> is you downing tools and stopping working.

These aren't exclusive, it's just they've downed tools and stopped working for the customer the strike is against. People don't join unions for their employer, they join unions for their industry. Therefore a union can strike against an employer while maintaining working for those not breaking collective agreements.

One factor that could be a thing in the next few years is the R&D on EVs, green mining, and rare mineral deposits found in Northern Sweden. Sweden now has the largest despot of materials used in EV batteries in Europe and is leading in green mining to be able to access those minerals while meeting climate targets. These materials are expensive and hard to transport - Tesla could use this as an opportunity to set up some R&D there and get access to the materials logistics to bring them to Germany, etc. Which I'm sure has crossed their minds. But if they fight the unions and storm off they're not going to be winning any bids for that extra stuff.

Because the previous examples of companies trying to avoid collective agreements have been American (notably Toys'R'Us and McDonalds)

I've lived and worked in the UK, the Bay Area, and Stockholm. Sweden does not pay as well but the employee/union perks & lifestyle is night and day compared to the other two. I definitely miss Bay Area salaries but I'm getting more holiday, I get paid extra for going on holiday, I get a years paternity leave & IVF bonuses, I get free healthcare (and most employers offer free private healthcare), I get a company car for very cheap, rent/properties are cheap and actually pretty large, the cities are built around nature, poverty is low, crime is low, people are happy...

I prefer the Nordic model so far!

Edit: I forgot the best one - unemployment insurance. If I get laid off I get my salary covered at 80% for 6 - 12 months (depends on the policy). This is through the union. Such a nice relief with all the layoffs happening in tech nowadays.

> not compromising on principles

Yes, I'm not talking about money here. Irrational means making bad decisions. The bad decision here is to continue playing with a bad hand against someone who isn't going to fold. Sweden is not going to fold so either Musk folds now to avoid more embarrassment & costs, or keeps going and folds in the future. It'd be more rational to just pull out of Sweden than fight a losing battle, as you said money isn't that much of a factor here.

I probably shouldn't have complicated things by mentioning an individual, I really don't know if that could even be possible. Imagine I said Republican Party.

The key thing is that for a strike to be declared it has to be called for by the union, it would be unprecedented to call a strike for political action against a party.

Hell yeah! Let's get those lazy workers on the lines working harder. Innovation and growth at all costs. Workers are cogs and if they're not behaving correctly they should be fixed or replaced. I, personally, am happy with a 21% illiteracy rate in America - workers don't need to be literate to make my flying cars faster.

Sweden might rank top for happiness and health but that's not going to make my bank numbers get higher for my annual two week holiday.

Stockholm ranks very high for Unicorns per Capita which most people don't seem to be aware of. Some sources say it's just under the Bay Area. Certainly there are many for a small country. Spotify, Klana, Tink, Northvolt, Kry, Einride, Voi, H2 Green Steel, etc...

The other notable thing is many of these are in the green energy space which Tesla will want to be part of. Northern Sweden has Europes largest deposit of rare minerals required for green batteries which are heavy and awkward to move around, so having access to those in Germany would be huge for Tesla down the line. Also, as mining becomes more targeted by climate crackdowns, Sweden is globally leading at carbon-neutral green mining.

There's loooooads of innovation in the green space in Sweden and avoiding this for a couple hundred technicians pensions is just insane to me.

Which is why I find it somewhat sickening when people argue that those who have to pee in bottles to meet KPIs for low wages are able to just go and find other work. People are out of touch on HN.

I'm lucky, I can go find other work and live without working for a while.

Someone on the poverty line working a warehouse job for health insurance to cover their diabetes in America is not able to "just move to a new place" like a sibling comment stated. The real goal should be to raise the bottom line up so even the poorest have a decent standard of living which is how the Nordic countries behave.

> plays ball

Which is the case for 99% of companies. It’s only American ones internationally expanding who don’t realise other economies operate differently that get stung with this.

They will have to give in or close shop. Simply two options available. Musk is pretty irrational when it comes to backing down so I suspect the latter. I was just about to buy a new Tesla when this kicked off and don’t fancy the risk of having a car I can’t service, so shopped around and discovered other EVs can be just as good with better build quality nowadays! So that’s a nice outcome for me.

I think the next one will be payment processing not being completed for Tesla. Mass transit drivers could do that. Court & Firemen must guarantee a minimum level of service on their strikes, so that’s unlikely.

* and the strike must be lawful, to strike. You couldn’t arbitrarily strike and stop delivering mail to Trump for example.

You’re talking about countries that constantly rank top 10 for all the metrics that matter (happiness, innovation, education, healthcare, etc). And this has been a model used in practice for a hundred years. It’s why there’s so many stable old companies in the Nordics.

Absolutely not! But that isn't what is happening here.

Yep. The main reason I joined a union was for unemployment insurance. If I lose a job I get 80% of my salary for 6 months. I also get discounted home/personal insurance and better mortgage rates. Once you include standard employer perks and you get a pretty decent quality of life without government intervention.

Which won't matter because they can't get license plates at the moment

My point is if you're working a job it isn't as easy as "find another one". These things are tough personal emotional topics. No-one wants to work at a job where they have to pee in a bottle, yet people work there.

I still feel that text makes it clear the actual working conditions & rights etc are built up by the unions and not the governments?

Fwiw I live in Sweden and am a member of its largest Union

Can you think of a single time this has happened though? Unions are great in Sweden, totally unlike those in the US. They're basically different organisations entirely.

You have three options: 1) government legislates everything tightly, 2) small government & pro-company, 3) small government & pro-employee. Simply put Sweden is 3, 1 is basically off the tables here, and 2 is against the Scandinavian culture.

Keep moving the goal posts, it's fun