disneygibson

That’s what happened in Western Europe.

They found a known poison in the doses years later. I hardly think a one off study is conclusive for determining that there were no bad side effects.

No, that’s just a Western-centric misunderstanding of geopolitics. China promises to not interfere in local politics, unlike the US and their crusade to remake the entire world in their own image.

Ergo in a world of less-than-ideal choices, the one that isn’t trying to destroy your society’s values is a better option. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and all that.

There is significant research indicating that these things are socially contagious.

You are misunderstanding me. These books argue that Rome partially fell because it became too focused on luxury and pleasure.

The early history of the polio vaccine had many situations like this.

In 1960, the rhesus monkey kidney cells used to prepare the poliovirus vaccines were determined to be infected with the simian virus-40 (SV40),[36] which was also discovered in 1960 and is a naturally occurring virus that infects monkeys. In 1961, SV40 was found to cause tumors in rodents.[37] More recently, the virus was found in certain forms of cancer in humans, for instance brain and bone tumors, pleural and peritoneal mesothelioma, and some types of non-Hodgkin lymphoma.[38][39] However, SV40 has not been determined to cause these cancers.[40]

SV40 was found to be present in stocks of the injected form of the IPV in use between 1955 and 1963.[36] It is not found in the OPV form.[36] Over 98 million Americans received one or more doses of polio vaccine between 1955 and 1963 when a proportion of vaccine was contaminated with SV40; an estimated 10–30 million Americans may have received a dose of vaccine contaminated with SV40.[36] Later analysis suggested that vaccines produced by the former Soviet bloc countries until 1980, and used in the USSR, China, Japan, and several African countries, may have been contaminated, meaning hundreds of millions more may have been exposed to SV40.[41]

See: side effects section.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine

Yes indeed it does. But I am criticizing the draconian enforcement, not the taking of the vaccine itself.

The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire is a good place to start.

Spengler in his works has a cyclical view of civilizations, which you might also enjoy.

Many “cyclical” ideologies also have similar ideas going back millennia. Hinduism for example sees the world as occurring in cycles. According to some, we are in a materialistic age, which is a consequence of losing spiritual values and a focus on comfort and pleasure.

I’m not proving anything. Simply saying that we lack data and if we go by past examples, we have a reason to be cautious.

Again, you lack a basic understanding of the scientific method.

No, it’s basic medical knowledge.

You seem to have very little understanding of how medicine works.

This really isn’t hard to understand.

In the past, some substances were thought to be safe, but turned out not to be. The “it’s safe” period of time was longer than a year.

Ergo it is reasonable to assume that we can’t know all of the side effects of current novel vaccines. It doesn’t mean there will be any, but it doesn’t mean there won’t be either.

That’s how science works.

There have been many negative side effects of other vaccines which were discovered after years of study.

This is basic medical knowledge. Not a conspiracy.

So you think that all side effects of substances are either noticeable in the first year or not at all?

Have you heard of DDT?

It is really scary how trustful people are of pharmaceutical corporations. We don’t even need to go back to DDT; the opioid epidemic was quite recent. What happened to the skeptics?

That would count if our question was “What are the likely side effects after one year?”

But it’s not. The question is long term side effects. Unless you have a time machine, I’m gonna say we can’t know those for quite a bit - unlike other vaccines which have decades of testing data.

If it’s a new vaccine unlike most others, doesn’t that imply that historical information is not as relevant as it would be otherwise?

No, I’m saying that when faced with the choice between comfort and difficulty, many people in the past chose difficulty. To insist that they would trade their religious beliefs, for example, for internet and Uber eats is rather myopic.

So we can know the long term effects of a novel vaccine but we can’t know the long term effects of COVID?

How does that make any sense? Don’t you think it’s more reasonable to assume we don’t know either?

It has nothing to do with SCOTUS specifically.

I can’t keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

It may seem hard to believe, but not every civilization throughout history has put consumerism and comfort above all other values.

No I’m simply rejecting your framing of the discussion. Rights are not a question of votes. It is not up for deciding democratically. To frame the question this way is to fundamentally misunderstand how rights work.

Please, enlighten me.

When was it common to prevent people from entering a restaurant unless they were vaccinated with a vaccine that itself had only been developed 15 months prior?

Most of the new things didn’t exist before. This is…basic information.

Even if they did, it’s pretty obvious that they have been dramatically increased in the last 18 months.

You seem extremely uninformed.

Have you been following the events in Australia, at all?

Linking to pre-Covid sources is a bit like linking to a pre-Hiroshima encyclopedia entry about nuclear energy.

No, they wouldn’t, considering that they explicitly set up difficult lives for themselves according to their values.

And no, you can’t read the minds of long dead people either.

Is it really so difficult to consider that we live in a scared, lazy age?

Conspiracy implies organization. There is no need for a conspiracy, simply the collective sum of individual selfish choices.

That wasn’t the average lifespan of people who reached adulthood. Infant mortality was simply higher.

Like I said, your ancestors had 99% more courage and confidence in the face of danger you can’t even begin to imagine. But, we are a terrified people and so we continue to build a safety space cocoon around ourselves.

No, that isn’t how rights work. They are guarantees that cannot be violated, no matter how democratically popular they are.