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bwesterb

109 karma · joined January 21, 2016

https://bas.westerbaan.name/ Post quantum at Cloudflare
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bwesterb··on 1.1.1.1 now supports post-quantum DNSSEC
There's no store-now/decrypt-later, but DNS is notoriously slow to make any changes. Better start early. We're running probes from our challenge pas to the test zone, so we see how much breaks with these large signatures. If things look good, we can roll out ML-DSA-44 by default on all Cloudflare signed zones.
bwesterb··on 1.1.1.1 now supports post-quantum DNSSEC, all 2,420 bytes of it
I like how an ML-DSA-44 RRSIG ends with a string AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA... a scream of relief it's finally out.
bwesterb··on Will you heed my warnings now?
Most approaches have missing "capabilities" that can be tracked. Adam Zalcman lays them out for superconducting qubits here. https://westerbaan.name/~bas/rwpqc2026/adam.pdf

For the neutral atoms approach in particular there doesn't seem to be a clear capability missing anymore to building a full scale CRQC: each of the separate components has been demonstrated. Of course when they try to put everything together they'll undoubtedly hit unexpected issues with integration. Wish I could be a fly on the wall at those labs.

bwesterb··on Will you heed my warnings now?
Scott used to be that guy.
bwesterb··on Will you heed my warnings now?
The abacus thing is pretty funny, but it's dangerously uninformed. https://bas.westerbaan.name/notes/2026/04/02/factoring.html
bwesterb··on Will you heed my warnings now?
It'll be a 90/10 rule: 90% of the upgrades will be straightforward. It's important the 10% that'll be hard early. For many it's probably already too late.
bwesterb··on Will you heed my warnings now?
QKD is cool and all, but it just doesn't scale to the whole Internet. https://blog.cloudflare.com/you-dont-need-quantum-hardware/
bwesterb··on Will you heed my warnings now?
Where available, you can migrate. Even if PQ is not yet available it helps to:

1. Make sure your dependencies are up to date. Move to a recent version of your crypto libraries. 2. Make sure your server can install multiple certificates: you'll need that unless you control all your clients. 3. Automate certificate issuance as far as possible.

Also, what you can do now is to run the following wargame: assume the CRQC arrived. What's the business impact?

For the migration itself I see three parallel streams.

1. Main push of straight-forward cases (TLS, etc.) Might need to wait a bit for software support.

2. Hard cases: crypto baked into hardware; custom protocols; keys in tight spaces (JWT in URLs); etc. You need to bubble those up soon to make decisions on how to fix them.

3. External dependencies. Barely any vendor has a PQ roadmap, so asking now is probably early, but you can figure out what to do if they don't get their stuff ready in time.

bwesterb··on Will you heed my warnings now?
We're almost done countering store-now/decrypt-later, but the biggest part of the job, post-quantum authentication, still remains. Like Google, we target 2029 to be done .
bwesterb··on Will you heed my warnings now?
SSH is working on a drop-in as we speak. TLS is further along: most stacks already support X25519MLKEM768 (by default!) to counter store-now/decrypt-later. PQ certs are not widely supported yet, but that's being sped up as we speak.
bwesterb··on Cloudflare targets 2029 for full post-quantum security
When it's real, it's too late.
bwesterb··on Cloudflare targets 2029 for full post-quantum security
You sure? Defenders get funding if things break—not when they actually did their job.
bwesterb··on Cloudflare targets 2029 for full post-quantum security
Yeah, it's rough. Important to understand now for each product / system what the business impact is if it's not upgraded in time.
bwesterb··on Cloudflare targets 2029 for full post-quantum security
They are large, but they're not that slow actually. We've been testing them for almost a decade now. I agree that rushing is bad. That's why we need to start moving now, so that we're not rushing even closer to the deadline.
bwesterb··on Cloudflare targets 2029 for full post-quantum security
Yeah, PQ certificate transparency is crucial for downgrade protection: https://westerbaan.name/~bas/rwpqc2026/bas.pdf
bwesterb··on A cryptography engineer's perspective on quantum computing timelines
> I could also be misremembering our conversation, but I thought you had said something like 2029 or 2030 in our 2020 conversation

Think that must've been around 2022. It'd have been me mentioning 2030 regulatory deadlines. So far progress in PQC adoption has been mostly driven by (expected) compliance. Now it'll shift to a security issue again.

> My concern is that there's so much human and financial capital behind quantum computing that the "experts" have lots of reason to try to convince you that it's going to happen any day now.

There've been alarmist publications for years. If it were just some physicists again, I'd have been sceptical. This is the security folks at Google pulling the alarm (among others.)

> [B]ut we also don't have any proof (existence or theoretical) that proves they are actually possible.

The theoretic foundation is pretty basic quantum mechanics. It'd be a big surprise if there'd be a blocker there. What's left is the engineering. The problem is that definite proof means an actual quantum computer... which means it's already too late.

> The other challenge is we don't know where BQP fits

This is philosophy. Even P=NP doesn't imply cryptography is hopeless. If the concrete cost between using and breaking is large enough (even if it's not asymptotically) we can have perfectly secure systems. But this is quite a tangent.

> Should we prepare for QC on the cryptography side?

A 10% chance it happens by 2030, means we'll need to migrate by 2029.

> it and ongoing in terms of slowing down worldwide communications

We've been working hard to make the impact negligible. For key agreement the impact is very small. And with Merkle Tree Certificates we also make the overhead for authentication negligible.

bwesterb··on Cloudflare targets 2029 for full post-quantum security
No need for a TLS 1.4.

Leaf certificates don't last long, but root CAs do. An attacker can just mint new certs from a broken root key.

Hopefully many devices can be upgraded to PQ security with a firmware update. Worse than not receiving updates, is receiving malicious firmware updates, which you can't really prevent without upgrading to something safe first.

bwesterb··on Cloudflare targets 2029 for full post-quantum security
Waiting now means rushing even more close to the deadline! We added stats on origin support for post-quantum encryption. Not as much support as browsers of course, but better than I expected. Still a long road (and authentication!). https://radar.cloudflare.com/post-quantum
bwesterb··on Cloudflare targets 2029 for full post-quantum security
If we do our job, it changes nothing. Problem with security generally: no spectacle if it's all correct. :)
bwesterb··on Cloudflare targets 2029 for full post-quantum security
At least it's time bound: hope to have this job done by 2029!
bwesterb··on A cryptography engineer's perspective on quantum computing timelines
Don't recognise you from your username, but thanks for the respect. (Update: ah, Vitali! Nice to hear from you.)

If you look back at my writing from 2025 and earlier, I'm on the conservative end of Q-day estimates: 2035 or later. My primary concern then is that migrations take a lot of time: even 2035 is tight.

I'm certainly not an expert on building quantum computers, but what I hear from those that are worries me. Certainly there are open challenges for each approach, but that list is much shorter now than it was a few years ago. We're one breakthrough away from a CRQC.

bwesterb··on Robust and efficient quantum-safe HTTPS
The key will be 40x larger. Not that bad for the certs. It'll be about 15kB extra. Will depend on your use case if that's bad. For video it's fine. But not all browsing is video. At Cloudflare half of the QUIC connections we see transfer less than 8kB from server -> client total. On average 3-4kB of that is already certificates today. That'll probably be quite noticeable. https://blog.cloudflare.com/pq-2025/#do-we-really-care-about...
bwesterb··on Robust and efficient quantum-safe HTTPS
Also just now Chrome published https://www.chromium.org/Home/chromium-security/post-quantum...
bwesterb··on Robust and efficient quantum-safe HTTPS
Yeah, filed https://github.com/mozilla/ssl-config-generator/issues/342
bwesterb··on Robust and efficient quantum-safe HTTPS
Merkle Tree Certificates basically uses the same structure as Certificate Transparency today. Merkle Ladder uses a weird variation claimed to be useful to DNSSEC. I think it's rather just to seem novel ( https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?submit=draft&id=dra... )
bwesterb··on Keeping the Internet fast and secure: introducing Merkle Tree Certificates
Client would check perhaps once a day. Similar to how Chrome checks about once a day for urgent revocations.
bwesterb··on Keeping the Internet fast and secure: introducing Merkle Tree Certificates
Also MTC is usable for everyone. Perfectly fits an automation-forward webserver like Caddy.
bwesterb··on Keeping the Internet fast and secure: introducing Merkle Tree Certificates
Yeah, this is going to take time. That is why we're starting now.
bwesterb··on Keeping the Internet fast and secure: introducing Merkle Tree Certificates
AES-128 also can't be cracked by quantum computers.
bwesterb··on Keeping the Internet fast and secure: introducing Merkle Tree Certificates
It indeed is!
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