> Your wording, particularly "kicking and screaming"
I am describing myself.
8 karma · joined February 21, 2024
I am describing myself.
I'd be interested to read this study if you have it.
> The "neurodevelopment dopamine theory" you're talking about is not a mainstream concept among neurologists
Are you saying its not neurodevelopmental?
There is a lot of research that shows that medicating ADHD via an addictive drug can actually reduce the risk of addiction in the long term, because the dopamine delivery becomes more stable. So not so much a pet theory but actually well-studied science.
> You're morally and practically the equivalent of someone advocating for removing wheelchair ramps, and telling paralyzed people to just walk
Are you really trying to equate ADHD to being in a wheelchair or being physically paralyzed?
This is why people can't take you seriously. 6 figure income and your life is as bad as someone who is physically paralyzed apparently.
> From the bottom of my heart- f*k you.
Do you really think this is an acceptable way to talk to anyone in life, let alone the HN community?
Pretty much what I am arguing for.
Deadlines have to matter.
> someone with ADHD might spend a week working on some random detail that doesn't matter, because they think it's important.
No one is like "oh, thanks, it was just a matter of working on this thing, my bad, I lost track of time". It's a totally arduous process to abandon this task you are enjoying and drag yourself kicking and screaming to work on what you should be working on...which will be pain inducing. You need a way to get through this pain.
> I think "scientism" in medicine has been very harmful
That's what they said when they were drilling holes in people's skulls and doing lobotomies.
Now we are giving children meth and yelling down anyone who wants to discuss long-term side-effects.
The obvious reality is ADHD is a means to sell meds and psych appointments. You cannot escape homeostasis and you just end up with people dependent on a drug for the entire life where the effectiveness has completely waned and they are worse than when they started.
It's unbelievable that ADHD diagnoses are increasing at the same time almost everyone is completely addicted to social media. If you start prescribing stimulants for ADHD when all they needed was to get off social media...you are going to fuck up an entire generation.
The neurodevelopment dopamine theory is the reason why ADHD people get these smart drugs and no one else does. It makes them safe from addiction. But its entirely unproven.
Don't you wonder though how evolution allowed this trait to come so far though, especially with it being so prevalent.
Potentially it meant that for centuries there have been children with poor school grades who simply went off into lower-income careers that they were suited to.
Yet...
> RSD isn’t an officially recognized medical condition. It’s also a condition for which there’s limited scientific research available.
> https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24099-rejecti...
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> This idea of punitively shaming people...
It's more about ensuring they appreciate the severity of the deadline.
If I tell a non-ADHD person to try their best to meet the deadline, they might get it done or might not and need a little extra time.
If I tell an ADHD person to try their best to meet the deadline, they might have not started at all, and end up falling far behind, or start making excuses because they are captivated by another task.
There are so many times where fear of repercussions from an imminently looming deadline gave me the initial momentum to put everything else aside and channel my focus to deliver.
But every time this happens you want to say "I just need more time because I started late because of ADHD"...and if the boss says "sure that's okay, take your time"...the motivation dissipates and you are back to tasks piling up.
I can only conclude that ADHD people need a shorter leash regarding scope and stricter deadlines, and not a comforting presence to reduce the pressure.
I am very open to hearing criticism of this approach.
But I think it's actually cruel to not be tough with someone and let their performance drop to a point they have to be fired which is the inevitable consequence. If someone cannot deliver then they cannot be kept around. If someone has 6 months to prove themselves...do you think with less deadlines and less strict deadlines they will have more chance of success? I think it just adds more risk and stress to themselves.
Because it does seem like an easy workaround via religiously following pomodoro - every 25 mins a reminder that you should look at your task list. It's hard to argue that someone can manage to ignore an alarm ringing every 25 minutes.
I thought of it more as you actually do know what you should be doing, but there is something a lot more interesting and novel that you prefer to be doing and the thought of reverting back to the task you should be doing without exploring this novel one feels like complete torture.
I always see these portrayals of ADHD children being hyperactive and just think: what if you just made them run outside for a while...surely they can't have never-ending energy and eventually tired themselves out.
And after this period of exertion, when they rest, do they then just instantly revert back to 100% hyperactivity?
> Quasi-Scientific Basis of ADHD in DSM-5
ADHD is the set of symptoms. The only reason people care about the term is because you can access drugs.
> “The child often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities because she has ADHD and she has ADHD because she does not sustain her attention in tasks or play activities.” As Pérez-Álvarez (2017, p. 2) notes “the symptoms are the guarantee of the diagnostic category, which in turn is invoked to explain the symptoms in an endless loop.”
> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2022.81476...
There is no scientific basis for it, it was a bunch of criteria that were arbitrarily chosen to create a term called "ADHD" so that they can prescribe meds.
You just have to ask the question as to why we can't give meds to everyone when 25% of college students report using them. Why can't we give meds to someone addicted to social media as a fix?
Everything is premised on it being a neurodevelopmental brain defect from birth...so that meds can be effective. But there is no basis for this.
You might as well just give anyone who doesn't get good marks at school or doesn't perform at work meds. In fact people want to do this.
Good read: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2022.81476...
> The number of criteria required for a diagnosis of ADHD has been set arbitrarily in DSM-5. No scientific justification has been presented nor method used for deciding how many criteria should be required
> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2022.81476...
and...
> For the case of ADHD specifically, this is translated to: “if an individual has attention deficit hyperactivity disorder it is because he is inattentive, disorganized and hyperactive-impulsive, and if an individual is inattentive, disorganized and hyperactive-impulsive it is because he has ADHD.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9871920/
It's important to be aware that each percentage point is hundreds of millions of dollars.
> For the case of ADHD specifically, this is translated to: “if an individual has attention deficit hyperactivity disorder it is because he is inattentive, disorganized and hyperactive-impulsive, and if an individual is inattentive, disorganized and hyperactive-impulsive it is because he has ADHD.
> ADHD in the DSM-5-TR: What has changed and what has not - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9871920/
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My take on this situation is based on common sense and personal experience.
I would be interested to read the science that counters this if you have it.
ADHD people tend to leave things to the last minute. But the reason they start in the first place is because of the deadline's existence and strictness - the physical reaction of stress when they finally consider the consequences. If you acknowledge they leave things to the last minute and account for that by making deadlines less strict and more forgiving, then the motivating and focusing power of the deadline decreases and they can just make excuses and don't find the deadline motivating enough to start.
The key is maintaining the motivational power of the deadline.
The smaller the deadline, usually the less motivating power it has and the less consequences it has to missing it. It's all a delicate psychological dance, but at some point the person needs to push up against a negative emotion now and then...which our modern culture seems to want to entirely eliminate.
Its the age old: why do I only have intense motivation to do the task the night before its due...next time I just need to start earlier...without realizing its the power of the night before that is the key to it all.
If you drink too much coffee it loses its effect. This is the same but with a much stronger and extremely addictive drug.
Some readings:
ADHD in the DSM-5-TR: What has changed and what has not - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9871920/
The scientific integrity of ADHD: A critical examination of the underpinning theoretical constructs- https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10....
Tolerance to Stimulant Medication for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: Literature Review and Case Report https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9332474/
ADHD is sold as a neurodevelopmental disorder which means you had it since birth, where they hypothesize that your brain doesn't make enough dopamine so you can't focus, so they simply return it to "normal" levels with meds. This is used to justify why normal people can't have it, and also why ADHD people won't simply develop tolerance and get addicted. But there is no "normal" across people. Your brain ships with a system that does everything it can to maintain its levels of dopamine, aka homeostasis.
There is no conclusive brain imaging evidence of it being a result of a brain defect. It could just as well be environmental or masquerading as social media addiction, or any other afflictions caused by rapid societal change. So you potentially mess up everyone's brains and get them hooked on pills for a lifetime. It would take a long time to re-adjust back to normal dopamine levels, so most people won't go through this process because it will be years of finding it harder than it originally was to focus.
It's a pretty frustrating experience haha.
EDIT: God...it does it so unbelievably well. I can even ask it about its inner emotional state that led it to being distracted.
> Nihilism is often associated with feelings of despair, pessimism, and apathy, as it challenges traditional beliefs and values. However, some argue that it can also lead to a sense of freedom and liberation, as it allows individuals to create their own meaning and values without being bound by pre-existing structures.
It is counter-intuitive to the traditional: find meaning and purpose dogma.
Starting a task towards a longer term goal brings to the forefront of how little time you have left.
A lot of people chase the money in an area of general interest. But the actual tasks they are being paid for might simply not be what they are suited for.
If always think to myself if only brainstorming, ideation and online shopping were a career haha.
It’s nice to tell yourself a story as to why this is the ideal moment to have a reset.
They need some external force to exert pressure, which is usually a strict boss and job, but usually they will just leave their job if the income is not needed.
A lot of ADHD advice promotes being more empathetic and forgiving, but ultimately they need a much stricter regime than the rest.
The thing I don’t like about adhd is that the premise is the brain doesn’t produce enough dopamine so we return it to normal levels…but the brain always seeks homeostasis so it will adapt by producing more dopamine reuptake cells. There are no conclusive imaging studies or genetic markers for it.
The meds certainly do work but if you ask someone to explain their condition to you they have all have the same simplified and erroneous explanation as to why they can handle addictive meds and the general population cannot.
I think it’s pretty much a general smart drug but with high risk of addiction.
Made me think of a chess timer. Maybe I will buy one now haha.
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I’ve found that any ideas I have for projects to help with procrastination never get done. It’s the ultimate procrastination and there is no end to it. It doubly kills my motivation because now I have to be thinking how much more efficient I would be if I had my tools which I currently don’t have. So even if I eventually start working, now it feels even harder :D
I think there are a lot of rabbit holes like this in programming in general.
Some of my most productive times have actually been sporadic bursts before appointments mainly for annoying tasks. The fact that you don’t have enough time seems to break the perfectionism blocker “I don’t have enough time so I’ll do a rush job of whatever I can knowing it will not be completed” and also avoids the self-disappointment pressure that would come from “I have plenty of time now but I still can’t work so I will never get it done”. It’s a time for building momentum. And it’s not like you are running away from the task purposely to procrastinate…it’s that you have no choice.
It’s like how some people are calm and productive when everything is in chaos, because the chaos makes it obvious exactly what needs to be done and no one is judging how it’s done they just need it resolved and you will be a hero.
Yet I simply can’t. It’s a total mind fu*k.
Yet we all do this all the time. Maybe someone has always wanted to learn some language, and then they’ve never spent even a few minutes starting.
I think the thing about running is I can’t just start watching YouTube and procrastinating along the way. And it’s much more straightforward - same every day with predictable and consistent reward. Plus there’s the adrenaline release.
I wonder if you could prompt it to be a vicious task master boss who demands regular status updates and can adequately shame you.