UnFroMage

Once minified and gzipped it's less than 200K. But yeah, I can see how a packing command would be useful with program analysis, except that'd rule out any use of the metamodel for dynamic programming.

Probably not easily because no JVM language has compatible lambdas types, but ideally in the future I'd love to be able to.

> but software is about trust and I do not trust somebody like Gavin King for delivering a good language after Hibernate :)

Perhaps it's just a joke, but if it's not: sure you're entitled to dislike Hibernate and prefer other ways to talk to a DB, but it's still one of the most widely used ORM on the JVM so it may not be perfect but it is also a huge success.

> But claiming it is anywhere near Kotlin's is just preposterous.

The only example you give is that they don't have their own standard library. I agree it's a difference, but you really think that makes it worlds apart?

I mean, in Ceylon you can also use the JDK, so I don't quite see the big thing, but even then, OK that's one difference (and it's a justified one too, but fine, OK). That's really the thing that makes you say that we have Java interop a world apart? I understand it may be an important point for you, but I don't understand how you can extrapolate that it's so important for everyone.

> while Kotlin has many thousands of libraries. Where is the FUD?

There. Right there ;)

Ceylon has an IntelliJ plugin in the works that builds on the solid foundation of the Eclipse plugin, so it's picking up features really fast. It should be out in a few months.

Ceylon also has excellent Java/JVM (and JavaScript) interop. You should try it :)

Don't forget that, running on the JVM with great interop means that any Ceylon program has instant access to a huge ecosystem, including not just Java libraries but also Scala libraries. I was able to use Apache Spark in Ceylon ;)

> The level of interoperability, though, is radically different from Kotlin's

There's no truth in that. Sure, it's possible that there are some differences in how we both do interop, and that some things are easier in one or the other, but overall you've no basis for claiming that, and I strongly suspect you haven't tried Ceylon for interop at all or you would not say that.

When you do try and find interop things that we should improve, please let us know in our issue tracker and we'll do our best to fix it.

Meanwhile, please stop with the FUD.

> - reified generics -- This is apparently expensive on the JVM: http://blog.jetbrains.com/kotlin/2014/12/m10-is-out/

FTR I am not sure I believe that explanation. I was with Gavin a few years ago when Andrey Breslav asked us if we were going to implement reified generics (we had not yet at the time) because they were having trouble implementing it and so if we were not going to implement it, they would not bother.

We haven't talked about this conversation publicly in the past because to be brutally honest most of it would make them look really bad, and it's likely that we won't, but this anecdote was very relevant to the discussion about reified generics.

My guess is they tried and failed, strictly based on this conversation. It's possible that they really considered it too expensive, but I since that's not backed by public experiments and our own experiments tell us it's not that expensive for the benefits it gives us, I don't _have_ to believe them ;)