RosieA

I see what you mean. There is a tough balance to be struck, so what then would you call realistic? If you're trying to explain to someone the potential of becoming a developer, and committing yourself to that learning and industry how would you position it?

And to be clear I don't mean it in a marketing sense so much as I mean how would you actually reword what you just called "not remotely common". I think its a totally relevant point, and while Lauren positions the ideal outcome, isn't that what we're all striving for...?

I think you're absolutely right that many, maybe most, perhaps even pretty-much-all bootcamps don't effectively teach students to problem solve, to self perpetuate learning. They don't even talk thoroughly about the commitment to their courses, much less the commitment to becoming a developer.

We're in a position where for instance, we sell the "dream" as you like to call, to bring as much initial interest as possible. But the commitment is definitely more than just an ideal, not something that converts a signup.

To be fair though, in our experience over 90% of our students do a call with us before actual enrollment in a course. That is to say a "purchase", and if there is anything we're clear about in that call its what they're really getting into. We don't have a sales team for that, Martin and I do the calls because we designed the courses and did the career leg work.

Why? Well because most students who don't have the stamina and understanding to become a developer over time drop out of our course within the fist 3 weeks, which is terrible. Not only does that just suck, but we're an education company, drop outs are simply the worst thing in our lives.

Now, could you assume I'm just trying to sell you with what I want you to hear, of course, but I want to be clear I totally agree with you. Actually we're just still trying to find our answer to it.

Lauren wrote an article from the perspective of capturing interest, and I think as a piece of content she did that beautifully and, even more to the point it triggered discussions like this one which we can learn from.

Interested in your continued thoughts, but thanks again for responding.

Do you have a link or resource for that argument you mention in the last line? I'd actually be really interested in digging into what that means.

The industry always calls it a "skills gap" (guilty as charged here), but our developing theory is that its an gap in education. Not privatized business-like education like ours, but in the core standard of education. In Europe certainly this is the more relevant discussion anyway as mandates are falling into place in the UK and other countries that enforce children to gain a rudimentary understanding of code through their traditional schooling. We're actually working really hard to help with this effort with a CPD for teaching teachers that we just launched. Yes its a savvy business move, but I'm really excited that we're trying to approach what we feel is actually the core issue.

Let me know if you have a resource for that argument, and let me know your thoughts on my comment!

I'm going to vote for a simple answer on this. We don't have enough solid talent because there simply isn't a high enough saturation of learning opportunities. not even on the most basic levels. Higher ed CS degrees don't train you up to work in the million and one startups that are looking for engineers of all levels.

You might argue that in the tech scene (those of us in locations where it exists and is prominent + we pay attention to the news because we're in it) its VERY saturated. But your examples of other industries are those that have been standardized by higher ed. Apart from MBA's and (for the most part agency-focused which don't teach you much about modern digital tactics) marketing degrees, the start up industry, even to some extent the tech industry, lacks the educational infrastructure that fields like the sciences do.

If it was on that level, businesses like the bootcamps wouldn't exist. Is it a problem that should be fixed? Yes, but bootcamps are the current solution. Some of them ::cough::careerfoundry::cough:: are rapidly working to help with the efforts of bringing things like teaching code to schools. Yes its a good business play, but it builds awareness around the problem at its core rather than creating a business to capitalize on it... which is what we do now.... obviously.

Deeefinitely relevant. We teach a full stack course (as many other bootcamps both on and offline) but sometimes the goals of students aren't that broad to begin with. They start with a small chunk, and then pick up projects that perpetuate their learning as they go. I can totally get behind that!

I think the real opportunity is to explore (hopefully in depth) whether or not development is the right thing.

Its definitely not fair (and not true because I know people who are the far other extreme) to say that you have to grow up being a developer to be a great developer.

Example?

Our CTO had a traditional engineering education almost 2 decades ago, but never touched web development. He worked as a project manager for 8 years. Nokia, Textr, etc etc. 2 years ago he started to learn web development. Today he's built a major platform and directs a team of crack developers. Is it a unique and special example? Hell yes. Can everyone do that? Almost definitely not. But is it proof that not having grown up coding doesn't mean you can't become a coder? Yes, very much so. And he's not my only story like this.

On hacker news we also talk a lot about developers with developers, many of which take it that to be a dev you have to be crazy talented across the board. I personally am totally ok with people who learn the basics of code, to start building sexy looking and simple websites as a freelancer. Hell I know people who learned front end, ruby (because it's "cool"), a little PHP then started working with a group of common platforms like Square and Wordpress, designing front ends and making an incredible living for themselves. I think that's totally a valid outlook for people in bootcamps, and not always considered in the conversation here....

Would love your thoughts!

I see your point, totally. The title is of course designed to get views, right? Marketing does have its role in any business, so we try to bring people with the interest into the fold. Pretty hard to educate them about the commitment without them even trying to code something though, so give them the mission and the avenue, right?

Ok but yes, it is a serious problem, so much sell for something that might only produce, as you said, a 5% talent outcome. The thing is, and I'm willing to take criticism on this, we have to start somewhere! The skills gap is literally growing faster than we're producing even junior level devs in the world. In Europe (where CareerFoundry is based) the problem is literally a good few steps farther than the US even. So isn't one path to solution to try and onboard as many interested potential developers as possible?

Problems with this? Depending on the bootcamp of course, the person walking out with 5% actually knows and understands they have only 5% or they don't. If the don't they become a "problem" for the industry, they become noise. But if they know it, and are taught to perpetuate their own learning, to take steps towards the great goal of actually becoming a fully fledged and accomplished developer... and they actually understand what that means... well then the bootcamp has done a good job.

How many bootcamps are doing that? No idea. We're working on it, we're not there yet but trying. And of course we always have to get as much shallow interest in the front door to then weed through potential students and try and get the geniuses to work with us. :-)

Would love your thoughts!

Hahaha! A little deterrent maybe for what is technically a start up, at least if you're talking about CareerFoundry, but I see what you mean. We're pretty harsh on people when they do their info sessions with us. The commitment is no joke. We loose a lot of students in the first few weeks when they start to realize the scope of what they have to achieve both in the course and outside of it. We try really hard to impress this on people before enrollment, even if on the front end of the site its mostly selling the mission. We don't want to intimidate people if we can help it, at least not before we have a chance to talk to them!

Your last sentence. So true. ESPECIALLY in Europe. We deal with this all the time, students who did CS degrees and then realize they can't work in the coolest part of the tech industry because they don't actually know how to code. A lot of these guys are brilliant of course and just teach themselves, but a lot of others are brilliant and looking for some accelerated guidance. Bootcamps (in my mind) is perfect for these individuals.

Agree? Disagree?

I'm actually really impressed with our student base in regard to your assumptions because they were ours as well. I noted this in a comment above, but many of our students are not (or at least claim not to be) doing our courses to "make more money". At least not on the code side. Our UX Design students often are experience designers who are upgrading by adding to their tool kit, but that's a different category.

A lot of our students are people looking to start coding to develop a new lifestyle. Or simply to move into an industry that's more exciting. A LOT of our students are literally planning on taking an absolutely massive pay cut to leave industries like Finance to do work for dirt-pay first as a freelancer and then maybe a junior position at a small startup. They just want to get in on the hyped growing industry, and hoping that development is a good path for them. Some of them find out quickly that it isn't right for them, but some of them get more excited by the day and make the leap.

Anyway, the problems you have with the bootcamp industry are problems we have as well, but defining the dream versus the mission for each individual looking for answers is tough. One of the reasons we love discussions like this. :-)

Just a thought that comes to mind here (not really a response) is that yes, problems exist with training good engineers, particularly in a bootcamp format. Many comments below go into this. But we see a lot of students who are learning development as a life style choice as well.

Maybe sounds odd but the mission for these guys and girls is actually never to get a "job", its actually to build prototypes of their own ideas or start freelancing as a web designer, doing small sites for friends and families then sourcing clients and using it all as a way to perpetuate their learning.

I don't know how many bootcamps get those kinds, but its become the majority of our student base.

I think for these people in particular bootcamps is brilliant. Though the problem with training good engineers for jobs in established companies still remains.

I think this is a really really important point. Even at our company (a bootcamp) we receive resumes like what you're talking about.

We definitely advocate quality bootcamps for their teaching, but one thing that's upsetting is the lack of focus on the "career" aspect. Like, how spamming a billion contacts with your github account is REALLY not the way to go about it.

We see the problem all the time though, even in our own student's perspective of the industry.

The one point I would disagree with, at least from the perspective of our program as I can't speak for others, is that while sometimes we end up with people strictly in the first bubble, those are generally the ones that never finish the courses. It becomes to hard, the actual scope of a "career" becomes to realistic for them, and its no longer about the potential pay check but what they want to be spending their time on. If they don't have the stamina or mental mojo to land in the middle of your venn diagram they never finish, and don't try to become career devs.

And the final line of your comment is so so so so so important. As a startup of course we want growth and push for it, but we restrict so much of what we could "sell" with on enrolling students based on the fact that we don't want to risk perpetuating this problem.

I'm sure we still do though, certainly on our front-end of the site no matter how much we pan down the sale to enrollment. So the perfect solution, for us at least, is as of yet to be found.

Definitely not, but where else do you start? We're asking this all the time as naturally there are a million pieces to becoming a developer. Code is just one tool in the box, but isn't it the basis? Particularly if you're starting from scratch, until you know you like code and how it works its hard to imagine being able to pursue a dev career.

We have discussions all the time with CTOs and recruiters about what gets a dev hired. We always cycle back to the fact that its really their personal projects that win the day.

Would you agree? When you're hiring a developer is it the time/certification/companies he worked for? Or his own stuff?

I know that's a bit of a shallow look at hiring which is way more in-depth, but would love your thoughts on that point.

Definitely! The reality of it is that sometimes you have to go somewhere to get somewhere, and that somewhere is often a lot different next week than it was last week!

Students struggle all the time, and some find out (even very quickly) that they just don't like coding. We work across the board to just help people figure out what they want to be doing so sure maybe its hustle on our end for a dropout, but now they know right?

I think its a bigger problem for bootcamps that are super intensive, particularly offline. The application process for these really has to include some coding prerequisites or you simply can't quantify someone's interest!

I can't say we haven't considered implementing a set of entry tests to "prove interest", we may still do this.

Hey Kalium! You definitely bring a passion to this, so I definitely want to understand you.

Perhaps you can explain your opposition a little more specifically?

My response was really to explain our methodology, perhaps mistargeted in your eyes but we're not talking about a dream, we're talking about the mission our students are on, the opportunity we work to provide.

So no, not accusing you of anything. just perpetuating the discussion. Thanks for your input!

"I argue that if you find someone who possesses the passion, curiosity, and ability to learn quickly and train them for a couple months, you'll have a decent developer."

I totally agree. This is exactly what we look for in all of our prospective students, as well as being passionate about it ourselves.

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

"I just hope that the students of careerfoundry know that it's one thing to learn coding in school, but it's up to the student to really go the extra-extra mile and learn things on their own.... and a bit of luck as well."

Going the extra-extra mile is something we absolutely promote ;)

Many thanks for your feedback smtddr.

Of course 'programming knowledge' covers a spectrum. At CareerFoundry we have never claimed to be training people to become Senior Full Stack Web Developers - like with many careers there is progression within the job. You start off at one level, you learn more, you progress and hopefully get promoted. We teach Ruby on Rails, HTML5, CSS and Javascript. With these coding languages under your belt, and the sufficient experience, you could get a job as a Junior Developer. Of course, like you said - and like with so many careers - reaching that next level takes real effort and dedication over a long time. But there is absolutely no reason why people can't get started in their careers at the bottom rung of the web development ladder with these skills, and work their way up by learning on the job and alongside their colleagues and peers.

Many thanks for your comment.

I understand your point Kalium but I'm afraid I'm not persuaded on this 'selling a fantasy' idea. For many people that come to us, the decision is something they think long and hard over before making that leap, being fully aware of what they will learn and what their continued learning will have to be in order to gain employment upon completion of a course.

Many of our students want to improve their overall job prospects, knowing that with tech skills (basic knowlege of coding, for example) their overall market value is significantly increased as every industry becomes more and more reliant of those with this knowledge. And not just developers. Hiring managers, CEO's, designers. The list goes on and on. Of course for those who do want to become developers this is an excellent start.

I'm not sure how the idea of teaching people valuable skills is in any way troubling. It's fairly discriminatory to older learners, or those who simply did not have the opportunity to learn at university to say that there is no hope for them now. Online programs like ours give people who haven't been exposed to programming a chance to learn in a supportive, mentored environment. Our mentors, who work the rest of the time as freelance developers, are able to pass on their knowledge and experience to their students in a similar way to how an apprenticeship would traditionally work.

And if our students do decide to become developers then learning coding languages is a pretty good place to start, I would say. It is a start that will, with the right experience and learning curve one day lead to a job. We all have to start somewhere and personally I think it's unfair to ostracize talented people simply because they haven't been lucky enough to have been exposed to a specific skillset earlier in life.

Many thanks for your comment.

Hi King_Magic I understand the point you're making, but for people who haven't studied computer science at university, or haven't been tinkering on a computer since they were a small child, these courses are a way they can break into this career. Tech should not be an elusive industry - especially when their is such a huge shortage of skills. These courses open up the scene for people who don't have the background in the industry, but want to change careers or expand in their current roles. No one is saying (and the article certainly isn't) that you can just jump straight into a job after a few weeks studying an online course, but what is true is that by studying online people can acquire skills via a course, then build up their experience over time, build a portfolio and then get a job.

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