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GiovanniP

83 karma · joined May 14, 2019

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GiovanniP··on Writing my PhD using groff
> Students seem to spend lost weeks and months fiddling with MS-Word only to create mediocre looking output.

I am suprised, and keep being surprised, that people haven't yet figured out that there is an excellent tool, that is TeXmacs, that manages to make WYSIWYG the best way to write structured documents while having complete control on the output and never having to fiddle with details.

GiovanniP··on Writing my PhD using groff
If you are working on a LaTeX successor you could be interested in TeXmacs, which is a LaTeX successor which works very nicely in many ways, except apparently selling itself well :-) You could see there how it was designed and how the author answered the questions you are asking.
GiovanniP··on I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX
Various senses that concur. It has, in addition to the line-breaking algorithm, a global page-breaking algorithm ... and for the rest may I suggest reading (it's brief) section 4.2 of GNU TeXmacs, A free, structured, wysiwyg and technical text editor, J. Van der Hoeven, Cahiers GUTenberg, no. 39-40 (2001), pp. 39-50, that you can find at the official website of the journal at http://www.numdam.org/article/CG_2001___39-40_39_0.pdf

And also looking at https://www.jonmsterling.com/papers/sterling:2022:wg6.pdf, I find it beautiful ... but perhaps there are better judges.

GiovanniP··on I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX
> Very honestly, part of the reason I don't bother with any new "LaTeX reimagined" projects is because either (a) they are written by LaTeX nonbelievers who don't understand the complexity of beautiful typesetting, or (b) I don't want to learn another markup+ language or mental model. The latter is increasingly annoying to me.

Then you have to try TeXmacs http://www.texmacs.org/. It is completely independent from LaTeX and TeX and has - beautiful typesetting (better than LaTeX) - it is fully WYSYWYG, so you don't have to learn a new markup language - yet it affords better document control than LaTeX

GiovanniP··on I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX
> It has superb output quality but the programming is awful

TeXmacs (http://www.texmacs.org/) has better output quality and nicer programming (it is Scheme :-) ) and it is easier to use.

GiovanniP··on I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX
> we could have a much better document format and publishing system around it.

TeXmacs (http://www.texmacs.org/ and http://forum.texmacs.cn/), and it happens right now!

GiovanniP··on I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX
You can check all of the papers of Joris van der Hoeven (https://www.texmacs.org/joris/main/publs.html) and of Massimiliano Gubinelli (https://www.hcm.uni-bonn.de/people/faculty/publications/?tx_...), and as well these lecture notes the link to which was recently posted on the TeXmacs forums https://www.jonmsterling.com/papers/sterling:2022:wg6.pdf (link to the forum post http://forum.texmacs.cn/t/sharing-some-lecture-notes-created...). The papers of vdH you find in his website are converted from the TeXmacs format into pdf (one can find the TeXmacs sources too by each paper) and the papers of Gubinelli as far as I know are written using TeXmacs but since he puts the links to the journals there you get a version converted from the TeXmacs format into LaTeX.
GiovanniP··on I hate LaTeX, I love LaTeX
TeXmacs is not a front-end for LaTeX, but a completely original system, superior to TeX and LaTeX under every point of view: typographic quality, ease of use, control over your document.
GiovanniP··on Inkscape 1.2 released
> The design space has been very rapidly moving towards online, live collaboration tools

TeXmacs has an online collaboration tool, although as far as I know it is still experimental :-)

GiovanniP··on Ask HN: What are your favorite examples of elegant software?
TeXmacs (www.texmacs.org), which is a finely crafted document preparation system realizing at the same time both the structured and the WYSIWYG paradigms. It is vastly superior to all other document preparation systems. In particular it is superior to both TeX (in all its variants) and to Word, under all respects: conceptually, in the power that it affords in manipulating documents, in the ease with which it makes it possible to write, concentrating only on the content and yet having one's document in front of one's eyes.
GiovanniP··on Show HN: Sioyek – PDF viewer for reading research papers and textbooks
> Or for something simple

> y(t) = { y(0) b e^{bkt} \over y(0) \big ( e^{bkt} - 1 \big ) + b}

TeXmacs finds that, by the way. I just tested it. And each piece of it: I tested the denominator.

GiovanniP··on Show HN: Sioyek – PDF viewer for reading research papers and textbooks
I am surprised that you think that you can't program WYSIWYG input: I even suspect that the thought depends on habit of thinking, and not on consideration of the matter on its own merits.

I did not check the things that you do---described in your message above---one by one, but I expect you can do all of them using TeXmacs, as it is completely programmable using Scheme (which of course I like much more than a macro expansion language ;-) ).

GiovanniP··on Donald Knuth – The Patron Saint of Yak Shaves (2017)
> That friend kept asking me to write a converter that would convert a file of TeX to a file of HTML. I kept telling him that such a converter was impossible because TeX was a programming language and HTML was not.

According to Massimiliano Gubinelli (please take a look at the following comments thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27820466, in particular at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27822662), the reason why a converter is impossible is that the _syntax_ of TeX is Turing complete. If one had kept syntax and programming constructs separated, then a converter would have been possible. (I understand the argument only superficially but I trust Gubinelli enough to report this here).

> Future of TeX?

is TeXmacs, worth trying

GiovanniP··on Donald Knuth – The Patron Saint of Yak Shaves (2017)
> what's even more amazing is the quality of the finished output of the system, unmatched to this day.

If you are referring to the output of TeX, according to Joris van der Hoeven it is matched and surpassed by TeXmacs

GiovanniP··on LaTeX Cookbook – Collection of LaTeX Recipes
TeXmacs is vastly superior to LyX, but, more importantly, it is a completely different thing, with a completely different concept. The following is my opinion, which I cannot motivate in a detailed and well-funded way, based on experience of a few years of TeXmacs use and more of LaTeX/LyX: given the difference between the two programs (TeXmacs is not based upon TeX!) LyX does not have the potential to reach the quality of TeXmacs.
GiovanniP··on LaTeX Cookbook – Collection of LaTeX Recipes
Please take a look at the following comments thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27820466, in particular at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27822662 where Massimiliano Gubinelli (one of the main TeXmacs developers) explains the issue.
GiovanniP··on LaTeX Cookbook – Collection of LaTeX Recipes
Just out of curiosity, how much time ago did you try it? On the one hand the latest version, 2.1.1, runs very smoothly and has a complete set of features (the extensibility of course allows to augment them, just like in TeX); on the other hand TeXmacs has very different principles than any other document preparation system and need just a bit of time (far less then LaTeX) to get used to. This blog post by Massimiliano Gubinelli may be a good introduction: https://texmacs.github.io/notes/docs/art-of-math-writing.htm...
GiovanniP··on LaTeX Cookbook – Collection of LaTeX Recipes
One needs a different perspective. It is used by millions of academics who did not yet try TeXmacs.
GiovanniP··on LaTeX Cookbook – Collection of LaTeX Recipes
Or uses TeXmacs
GiovanniP··on LaTeX Cookbook – Collection of LaTeX Recipes
As far as I know the main issue there is that LaTeX is a Turing-complete language and no reliable complete export filter can exist, so in particular one cannot export reliably all of LaTeX to HTML
GiovanniP··on LaTeX Cookbook – Collection of LaTeX Recipes
> Crisp.

Please open any of the publications in https://www.texmacs.org/joris/main/publs.html (pdf versions) and then get your own opinion on whether anything else is crisp ;-)

GiovanniP··on LaTeX Cookbook – Collection of LaTeX Recipes
Like amichail said in another comment, you could give a try to TeXmacs (www.texmacs.org). It is a WYSIWYG document preparation system which is at the same time structured and can be completely programmed by the user. The name comes from the fact that it wants to reach the typographical quality of TeX (the author claims that it _surpasses_ it) and the flexibility of emacs. I am using it since a few years and I think the reason it is not more widespread is that - people do not immediately see its potential - LaTeX unfortunately cannot be exported reliably b/c of the Turing theorem (really!i I am taking this on the word of the developers but they are established mathematicians, so I assume they know), and so traps users

A little bit of trying TeXmacs and you could like it!

GiovanniP··on Web4 Should Run on LaTeX
> I mean, that already failed for LaTeX. To me it's kind of an unwieldy pile of wierd imperative imports

You need to try TeXmacs (which, despite its name, is not based on TeX ;-) ). www.texmacs.org

GiovanniP··on The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
> I'll just make whatever I want in PowerPoint

If you use PowerPoint, you might try TeXmacs (WYSIWYG, structured and programmable).

> they are absolutely delighted by the bump in design quality

I expect them to be even more delighted :-)

GiovanniP··on The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
> what would you like to see in LaTeX's place?

a document preparation system in which

- it is easy to read what you wrote (without having to switch between the editor and the typeset text)

- customization is done with a sensible programming language

GiovanniP··on The LaTeX Font Catalogue
Tex Gyre Termes could be. For an example, please look at https://www.texmacs.org/joris/zcomp/zcomp-abs.html (you can download both a pdf and the TeXmacs source---note that TeXmacs is not based on TeX, you need to use the TeXmacs program to edit it comfortably and to obtain a pdf).
GiovanniP··on MacKichan Software, maker of Scientific Word, has gone out of business
> For more structured content this is not possible: the natural output of TeX is a sequence of graphics boxes for the glyphs, or something like a DVI format. It is too late to retain semantic informations, e.g. about mathematical formula.

I think this applies to the natural output of TeX's "mouth" as well, i.e. one could exapnd LaTeX macros till one obtains TeX primitives, but at that point the information on structure is already lost.

GiovanniP··on MacKichan Software, maker of Scientific Word, has gone out of business
I have an example on-hand for that---it is also equations, look at this, I need to compile it to understand it (it needs the amsmath package):

    {

    \def \l {\mathrm{l}}

    \def \r {\mathrm{r}}

    \def \Bl {\mathrm{Bl}}

    \def \Br {\mathrm{Br}}

    \def \B {\mathrm{B}}

    \def \nIIom {n_{2\omega}}

    \begin{equation}\label{eq:interface_conditions}

        \begin{aligned}

          F_{1\l} &= F_{2\r} + F_{2\l} \exp (i\,k_2 L) + F_{\Br} + F_{\Bl} \exp(i\,k_\B L) \\


          F_{1\r} &= -\nIIom \, F_{2\r} + \nIIom \, F_{2\l} \exp (i\,k_2 L) - \nIIom \, F_{\Br} +
                            \nIIom \, F_{\Bl} \exp(i\,k_\B L)\\


          F_{3\r} &= F_{2\r} \exp (i\,k_2 L) + F_{2\l} + F_{\Br} \exp(i\,k_\B L) + F_{\Bl} \\

         -F_{3\l} &= \nIIom \, F_{2\r} \exp (i\,k_2 L) + \nIIom \, F_{2\l} -
                            \nIIom \, F_{\Br} \exp(i\,k_\B L) + \nIIom \, F_{\Bl}

        \end{aligned}

    \end{equation}

    }
(by the way the formula may contain some math mistakes---it is supposed to represent interface conditions for a system of waves in a nonlinear optical medium---but it is good enough for showing the editing point)
GiovanniP··on MacKichan Software, maker of Scientific Word, has gone out of business
My main "for" point towards GUIs is that one is able to read back easily what one wrote. On the other hand, to read comfortably a LaTeX equation I have to compile it; then for editing I have to move my attention back and forth from the compiled document to the source. (corrected a mistype)
GiovanniP··on MacKichan Software, maker of Scientific Word, has gone out of business
> The math equations made by Word have a distinctive appearance.

Try and use the GUST fonts (http://www.gust.org.pl/projects/e-foundry), Microsoft Word equations will look then excellently made. The last time I used the GUST fonts, by the way, I was able to export Word documents to pdf only be printing, as using the pdf converter some glyphs would "lose pieces"; and exporting via printing I would lose the clickable links. But I did not try with the Word plugin for the latest versions of Acrobat.

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