DesaiAshu

We definitely look to them as inspiration! We've read a decent amount of how they were started. It's more or less the only new prestigious institution founded in the last 50 years. A lot of their classroom pedagogy also aligns with the direction we've been going, more project based and applied. And they've done a great job of sharing learnings back out to other institutions.

They sit more squarely in the research university category, whereas we're closer to a teaching college (where faculty are dedicated to students rather than publishing research). And it's been a capital intensive way to build a college, since they build out a big campus, research facilities, etc.

We've been meaning to build a closer relationship with them to share learnings on the education side, good reminder to reconnect with the folks we know there :)

To be clear, this is not a trade program. A bachelors degree is required (and screened by accreditors) to have a broad based education encompassing liberal arts and theoretical education.

But if you don't make the financial payout, you don't pay for your education or hold obligation to pay or take a hit to your credit. With our tuition model, downside protection is baked into the contract, unlike at the UC system.

I understand your gut reaction, most new colleges have not optimized for student welfare. But it's not fair to bucket us into those when the whole point of creating this college was to build a systemic solutions to exactly those problems.

Ah, the page that says $190k refers to 2 years worth of income, not $190k/yr. We're fixing that now!

Also, it's worth considering that the negative perspectives on more vocational focused institutions are propagating classism in the US.

In many countries in Europe, it's common to go to a vocational school for undergrad then a research university for grad school. The system is built for mobility.

In the US, you're tracked at age 18 (largely based on what you accomplished at age 16), locked into that system, and more or less judged for life. It's not particularly surprising that so many Americans detest well-educated coastal elites.

Scholarships for traditional universities are pretty hard to get unless you have really strong academics. And generally the odds are stacked against you to go to a top tier university if you're coming from a low income background.

Keep in mind that if you graduate from Make School in 2-2.5 years, you'll start earning earlier. So the ROI on the $70k is really strong!

Research Universities are definitely the way to go if you want to go into the research focused ML/AI side of things. We're being explicit that this is an Applied CS degree for that reason. But for most tech careers the traditional CS degrees aren't as relevant, including for Data Science jobs (we have a few recent alums making north of $150k as Data Scientists). And you can always go back for a masters if you feel you need it.

Have you visited 42 or been through their curriculum? What parts do you feel are better?

There's a 2.5x cap, so max is $175k.

Our site should say $95k average not $195k, which page are you seeing $195k?

Your perspective highlights one of the biggest false choices of traditional education - that you can either get a well rounded education or learn vocational skills (but not both).

124 units that make up an accredited bachelors degree is a LOT of time to learn, and you can divide this across a mix of modern technologies, computer science theory and "proper engineering", liberal arts courses, and soft skills.

Just because we have some courses that help you get a day one job doesn't make us a trade school.

A lot more on this, and our origins here - https://www.makeschool.com/vision

"Project-based learning isn't new."

This! Research has shown it's more effective for 50 years or so, but few educational environments have adopted it (except for Montessori schools, some charter schools, and new age private schools like the one we went to). It's ironic that most of this research originates in universities, and then somehow it doesn't make it across campus...

Our high school teachers (Jeremy and I went to school together) were pretty progressive and innovative in the ways they taught, and the types of projects they had us undertake - but yes, project-based on it's own isn't a new innovation.

We actually have a lot of transfers from community colleges, and they're eligible to graduate faster / reduce their tuition burden.

I fully agree that the 2 years of community college + 2 years of UC is one of the most cost effective ways to earn your degree. Though given that 2 years of UCLA (where I went to school) would cost ~$30k in tuition and that you have 2 more years of salary if you graduate from Make School, it ends up being comparable on an ROI basis.

Nice to hear from you and thanks for the feedback. I'll share this with our Dean and instructional team as they consider more specializations to add!

We're not considering an online only program, though we are making more and more of our resources available online for free.

For a full degree program - given that it takes 2-2.5 years of full time work to complete - it's not super feasible to expect people to get through it without a strong social learning environment.

I've been helping PM the AMA on our side. We've had multiple team members support answering the questions but I explicitly asked people not to ask questions.

We have a lot of students and alumni who see these posts and want to be supportive, so usually there end up being comments or questions that feel canned or overly enthusiastic. Not much we can do here :)

We're starting to build out more math and deeper on algorithms, particularly for people who want to go the AI/ML route or grad school. Currently if you're keen on grad school it's probably better to go to a well ranked research university.

On average you'll pay $100k, but it's a sliding scale based on your income so we ensure it's affordable / there is downside protection. Given that you have 2 more years of earning than a traditional university you'll usually come out well ahead.

"Any new institution, regardless of merit, would face the same challenge"

This! It's proving to be a LOT harder to build reputation in this world than it is for most startups. Higher Ed brands are societally entrenched in a way that some people define their entire social hierarchy around it (which we don't feel is particularly progressive of a worldview). This is partly why there's been limited pressure to innovate in higher ed, in order to build a new school you first need a lot of capital, then work to get accredited, then build a strong reputation. Some of the strongest barriers to entry of any industry.

Based on reputation it's tough for us to compete for students who are considering MIT, Stanford, or Ivy's. We have a few students who transfer from those schools because they want a more hands on education, but it's not the norm.

Our outcomes set us apart from the next tier of universities. Average starting salary is north of $100k (on par or higher than any other CS degree) with strong placements at name brand companies. Unlike top universities with comparable outcomes, we draw from a much more diverse socio-economic range.

We have struggled with the name a bit. On one hand we like that it sounds much more humble than trying to pick a "prestigious" sounding university name (and we don't like the ego involved with naming it after a person), but on the other many people don't grok that it's a proper college on first glance. Sticking with it for now...

WASC (which accredits Stanford, UC Berkeley, etc) approved the 2 and 2.5 year degree plans totaling 124 credit hours. It's do-able, just took some creative problem solving :)

We don't have a traditional summer break, so that's a big part. And we have course material that enables students to get credit during their internship or first job (which some students will do after completing all other courses).

A few things to clarify here:

1. The degree is granted by a non-profit institution, Dominican University. The for-profit Public Benefit Corporation Make School, is currently providing services to the non-profit institution to run the program. It's also regionally accredited by WASC (far stricter guidelines) rather than nationally accredited like typical for-profits.

2. In contrast to typical for-profits, our students are predominantly 18-25 years old. They are choosing between Make School and traditional universities.

3. In contrast to typical for-profits, our incentives are directly aligned with students. As you state, existing for-profits targeted students to get approved for federal student loans. Our students don't take federal student loans, and they don't pay tuition unless they make >$60k per year. Their tuition is also scaled with their salary.

It's reasonable to discuss the merits of this vs state schools vs non-profit private colleges. It's hard to claim it's a scam when you're completely protected on the downside.

You're right that our privacy policy is generic / written for web services - that policy applies to our website rather than our student data. FERPA laws govern student data, so those are definitely better protected than the generic policy may indicate!

I hear your point. To avoid getting into trouble I'll keep the framing as better than a full tuition scholarship (rather than full ride). It's already a good deal so no need to take risks with marketing :)

If you're curious, here's the math I'm using (assuming that our average salary will stay around $95k and long term salary trajectory will map to traditional stats). Since our tuition is a percent of earnings, the math is relatively straightforward:

Make School:

- Tuition = 20% of 5 years salary = ~1.1x starting salary = $1.1S (assumes 5% annual salary increase)

- Living expenses = 4 * annual cost of living = $4L

- Earnings = $1.03S * 0.65 * 2 (assumes 35% tax rate, 5% annual salary increase)

- Net worth after 4 years = $0.24S - $4L

Full Tuition Scholarship:

- Tuition = $0

- Living expenses = $4L

- Earnings = $0

- Net worth after 4 years = -$4L

Full Ride Scholarship:

- Tuition = $0

- Living expenses = $0

- Earnings = $0

- Net worth after 4 years = $0

To plug in some numbers, our students' cost of living tends to be ~$1500/mo, while our average starting salary is approximately $95k.

- Make School case net worth after 4 years: -$49k

- Full tuition case net worth: $-72k

- Full ride case net worth: $0

However, this doesn't factor in compounding gains of starting off at a higher salary (http://eagle.gmu.edu/newsroom/843/). The top CS programs in the country (Stanford, MIT) are currently at ~$95k average starting salary, while the overall average is ~$60k. At the point their peers are graduating college, our alums will have a $10k+ higher salary. This difference should compensate for the -$49k difference over a long career.

Since tuition and tax rates are both proportional to income, the numbers won't change substantially if salary is lower.

Thanks for the positive feedback :)

We're not as cheap as online Udemy courses due to high touch instruction at a physical campus. Though we are substantially undercutting traditional bachelor's degrees on cost.

Students will on average pay ~$100k for their degree, but because they enter the workforce 2 years sooner they also have $200k more earnings than their peers (pre-tax/tuition). From a net-worth standpoint, this ends up being comparable to getting a full ride at a 4 year institution.

Make School | Multiple Locations | Onsite | Temporary

Make School was founded in 2012 to empower students to build and ship products that impact their communities.

We’re looking for iOS developers to teach at our Summer Academy, an eight week program where students of all ages build and ship their own iOS app, game, or VR experience. You'll teach Swift fundamentals plus product design, prototyping, user testing, analytics, and more. This is a contract position in 2017 from mid-June to mid-August. Locations include San Francisco, Oakland, Silicon Valley, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, Washington D.C., Atlanta, New York City, Beijing, Hong Kong, and Tokyo.

Apply here and mention Hacker News: https://www.makeschool.com/jobs

We've met some great people through HN and would love to meet more!

Make School | Multiple Locations | Onsite | Temporary

Make School was founded in 2012 to empower students to build and ship products that impact their communities.

We’re looking for iOS developers to teach at our Summer Academy, an eight week program where students of all ages build and ship their own iOS app, game, or VR experience. You'll teach Swift fundamentals plus product design, prototyping, user testing, analytics, and more. This is a contract position in 2017 from mid-June to mid-August. Locations include San Francisco, Oakland, Silicon Valley, San Jose, Los Angeles, Seattle, Chicago, Dallas, Boston, Washington D.C., Atlanta, New York City, Beijing, Hong Kong, and Tokyo.

Apply here and mention Hacker News: https://www.makeschool.com/jobs

We've met some great people through HN and would love to meet more!

Make School | San Francisco | Onsite or Remote | Full-time

Make School was founded in 2012 to empower students to build and ship products that impact their communities. Our core products include:

- Product College - an accelerated 2 year college replacement program

- Summer Academy - an 8 week program for students of all ages to build and ship their own app

- Swift CSP - a free CS curriculum that teaches iOS development designed for AP Computer Science

Our talented and diverse team is working hard to change education and we could use more players. We're currently hiring for several positions, including a Ruby on Rails Engineer, iOS Product College Instructor and Engineer, iOS Summer Academy Instructor, and more.

Make School offers competitive salaries, excellent benefits, lots of networking opportunities, and a work environment where every employee has an impact.

Apply here and mention Hacker News: https://www.makeschool.com/jobs

Reach out to sarah@makeschool.com with questions.

We've met some great people through HN and would love to meet more!

Make School | San Francisco | Onsite or Remote | Full-time

Make School was founded in 2012 to empower students to build and ship products that impact their communities. Our core products include:

- Product Academy - an accelerated 2 year college replacement program

- Summer Academy - an 8 week program for students of all ages to build and ship their own app

- Swift CSP - a free CS curriculum that teaches iOS development designed for AP Computer Science

Our talented and diverse team is working hard to change education and we could use more players. We're currently hiring for several positions, including a Ruby on Rails Engineer, iOS Instructor and Curriculum Engineer, Growth Hacker, and more.

Make School offers competitive salaries, excellent benefits, lots of networking opportunities, and a work environment where every employee has an impact.

Apply here and mention Hacker News: https://www.makeschool.com/jobs

Reach out to sarah@makeschool.com with questions.

We've met some great people through HN and would love to meet more!

Make School | San Francisco | Onsite or Remote | Full-time

Make School was founded in 2012 to empower students to build and ship products that impact their communities. Our core products include:

- Product Academy - an accelerated 2 year college replacement program

- Summer Academy - an 8 week program for students of all ages to build and ship their own app

- Swift CSP - a free CS curriculum that teaches iOS development designed for AP Computer Science

Our talented and diverse team is working hard to change education and we could use more players. We're currently hiring for several positions, including a Ruby on Rails Engineer, iOS Summer Academy Instructor, Web and Marketing Designer, Growth Hacker, and more.

Make School offers competitive salaries, excellent benefits, lots of networking opportunities, and a work environment where every employee has an impact.

Apply here and mention Hacker News: https://www.makeschool.com/jobs

Reach out to sarah@makeschool.com with questions.

We've met some great people through HN and would love to meet more!

He's not saying everyone will be successful, he simply means there's nothing innately special about people who are successful and you shouldn't rule yourself out because you don't think you're [insert adjective here] enough. You need to be a moderately smart person who works hard, follows the right formula and gets a little lucky. You might still fail but it's definitely worth a shot.

Make School | San Francisco (onsite)

Make School is building a university replacement for future founders and developers. Students spend 2 years learning CS theory, product development and entrepreneurship. Students pay nothing upfront, they pay tuition through earnings. You can read more about our vision here: https://medium.com/make-school

We're hiring a Growth Hacker, Designer, Curriculum Engineer: https://www.makeschool.com/about#careers

We're also interested in talking to great engineers who want to help us build the OS to power Make School!

You can reach me at ashu @ makeschool . com

Make School [https://www.makeschool.com] | San Francisco, CA | ONSITE | VISA

Make School is building a university alternative for CS. It's a 2 year program where students learn CS theory, product development and career skills. Our first class graduated to companies like Snapchat and Pandora, and built products featured in publications like the Huffington Post. Students pay nothing upfront and pay tuition through earnings.

We're looking for Curriculum Engineers with focuses on Ruby on Rails, iOS and CS Theory to build curriculum, teach students and help design the university experience of the future. Ideally you have a strong background in academia (MS or PhD) and relevant (4+ years) industry experience, though neither are required. We expect instructors to continue working on real world projects to serve as the foundation for our project based education and keep their knowledge sharp.

If you're interested, email me at ashu@makeschool.com!

Make School (https://www.makeschool.com, YC W12)

We're building a university replacement for computer science. Students spend two years learning CS theory, shipping products and interning at a tech startup. The program has no upfront cost for students, they pay tuition through future earnings. Our founding class graduated to Snapchat, Pandora, Edmodo, etc. Our investors include YC, a16z, Tim Draper, and Mitch Kapor.

We're looking for:

Curriculum Engineer with Rails focus (SF - https://www.makeschool.com/jobs/ruby-on-rails-instructor)

Summer iOS Instructor (NYC, SF, Palo Alto - https://www.makeschool.com/jobs/ios-summer-instructor)