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Comment by melling | Hacker News Reader

Here's a prior HN discussion on affordable standing desks that I have in my notes:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8552613

I question his choice of keyboards. Most keyboards use cheap rubber dome switches and not mechanical ones. People will spend a lot of money on a good keyboard like this Kickstarter project:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-model-01...

...or build their own like an ErgoDox:

http://www.ergodox.org

This StackOverFlow sister site question illustrates several mechanical switches: http://superuser.com/questions/366221/differences-between-ch...

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The problem is there's no good ergo layouts with mechanical switches. Something like the MS Ergo 4000 or Sculpt, with Cherry MXes.

Closest I've found is the Matias Ergo Pro[1], but it has several inexplicably bad design decisions. Dedicated Copy paste undo buttons, that just send ctrl-z,x,c,v. Awkward positioning of Ctrl and Escape for no reason. Terrible crappy little arrow keys. Really weird shit like having a USB hub, then putting the port on the inside with no space to plug things in. After using it for a month, I'm still often making mistakes and will probably go back to the MS Sculpt, which at least has scissor switches instead of the terrible domes.

It's like every keyboard designer to do ergo has had a stroke and intentionally messes stuff up. Kinesis is stuck in the 90s with their huge success and terrible look (and again, weird layout). The Keyboardio is probably the least offensive, as long as the modifier key system is smooth. It's stupid that in 2015 we still don't have great keyboards. The stackoverflow guy's CODE keyboard even focused on backlights. Who the hell is spending $100+ on keyboards and can't touch type? Strange market I suppose.

1: http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/

Scissor switches always bottom out, which is unhealthy:

"Key Travel Distance: Scissor-switch membrane keyswitches are not 'full-travel' and typically have a key travel distance of 1 - 2.5 mm as compared to 2.5 - 4 mm for memrance keyboards. As such, when typing on these keyboards it is almost impossible to prevent 'bottoming"

http://www.ergopedia.ca/ergonomic_concepts/Mechanical_Keyswi...

The ErgoDox seems good, but I don't want to build my own. Afraid I'll screw it up. :-(

That may be, but I feel much less fatigue using scissors than the membrane domes. At least comparing the MS Ergo 4000 vs Sculpt. The new switches on the ThinkPad X series tire me out more than the IBM style, though.

ErgoDox has a fundraiser for a preassembled version. They've raised nearly $100K. [1]. Which is funny because a manufacturer was telling me how expensive it was to make keyboards and so on, that they'd need like $70K. OTOH the ErgoDox isn't really standard; people must be desperate.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ergodox-ez-an-incredible-...

ErgoDox moves several keys like Enter to the thumbs. The thumb layout matches the Kinesis Advantage: http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/Kinesis_Contoured_Keyboard_Classic_...

The Kickstarter Model 01 does the same thing with a different layout: http://www.keyboard.io

I completely agree, after a small bout of CTS / tendinitis I switched to the original MS natural keyboard and it's still going strong at home for 20 (!) years now.

At work I ended up with a natural keyboard 4000, which has a layout nearly as good as the original, and much better than the other various iterations that happened in the meantime with non-standard cursor or pgup/down cluster keys.

I would be completely willing to spend a few hundred dollars on a keyboard with mechanical switches in that exact layout but of course usb and with a bunch of extra keys to xmodmap as needed (say, like the as/400 keyboards) but there aren't any to be had in the market.

It would be even more amazing to have a natural keyboard with mechanical switches and oled keys, but who knows if that will ever happen.

Yes. 24 function keys would be a start, plus some more down the left-hand side. Maybe a 3-state numlock, whereby you could get ten more from the numpad.

But, no. It appears the way to make the keyboard more useful is not to give people more keys, nor even just to give them the same set they're used to, but to take them away, and then shuffle around the ones that are left.

Funny... you'd think that for an activity that relies on muscle memory - such as, say, typing - this would be exactly the sort of thing that people would be paying a bit more attention to not doing.

Maybe it's supposed to be some kind of vendor lock-in strategy. One of those vendor lock-in strategies that even Microsoft feels would be a step too far.

Have you tried the Kinesis Advantage? For typing, I haven't had a better experience.

Can second that. The only thing I dont like are the crappy function keys, but that will hopefully be fixed by the next version that is finally in the works. [1] I use it in combination with the neo layout which I find really comfortable. [2]

[1] http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36195.0 [2] http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=htt...

Disappointing to hear of all the setbacks; though. I hope it'll be available by next year, if not I may end up investing in a KeyMouse, depending on how it's received.

Oh, didn't know about KeyMouse, looks interesting. A litle bit like a DataHand. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand

I have not. The design and size put me off. Plus I really want to avoid a different key layout, as it raises my error rate (and hand stress). This is important because I move about and sometimes use a laptop keyboard.

But maybe I'll have to give it a shot. I just don't see what's so hard about taking a normal ergo keyboard and making it with proper switches.

I'm curious if this is simply some silly patent issue where people would make it but MS or Logitech owns a patent that is preventing it without significant modification...

If you need to be mobile then it may not be a great choice; it's pretty cumbersome. I've been looking at the Matias Ergo Pro which looks like a better choice for someone on the go. However, I think the layout is just something that requires a bit of getting used to; after about a month I got really used to it and switching back and forth has gotten easier with use of both it and a standard keyboard.

Additionally, not sure if it matters to you, but it is terrible for gaming.

IKEA also sells height-adjustable desks in some (most?) countries. I have one at home and are very pleased.

Dito. I have the Bekant (160cm * 80cm and adujstable height between 65cm and 125cm) at home which costs around 550 usd where I live (20% tax already included) and has 10 years warranty (most a lot more expensive desks have only 2-3 years). I can sit and stand at the desk but I sometimes use a sports trampoline for mild jumping or a treadmill to walk at the desk (like linus torvalds). [1]

Some studies suggest a 8 hour workday should consist of 60% sitting, 20% standing and 20% walking (no link at hand since I'm not at my regular pc).

In some countries Ikea has an even more affordable sit-stand desk called Skarsta. [2]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSgUPqygAww [2] http://www.ikea.com/jo/en/catalog/products/S29084966/

Thanks for comment, I didn't know about the Kickstarter Keyboard (I just backed it). I have to use a split keyboard to avoid wrist pain so my options are very limited. If this isn't an issue for you then the Das Keyboard is very nice in my opinion.

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