Living in a van - an inspirational story of frugality and achievement | Hacker News Reader

Living in a van - an inspirational story of frugality and achievement

salon.com

112 pointsimajes53 comments

This line caught my attn:

"Not including tuition, I lived (and lived comfortably) on $103 a week, which covered my necessities: food, gas, car insurance, a cellphone and visits to the laundromat."

To each his own, but if it was me and I wanted to live on $103 a week I would skip the van (-$1500), gas, car insurance, and probably cell phone too. I know you can find rooms in Durham for under $300 a month. Find a friend to share the room with and you're each paying $150 a month. You then have windows (fresh air), a kitchen, shower and toilet. Maybe buy a bicycle from the Salvation Army for $10 and you're more than set.

I think it is all pocket change compared to what he is paying to attend Duke. From his blog:

"Anonymous said... I'm curious why you chose a very expensive private uni over a public. Perhaps you could write an article on that from a frugal perspective. Cost/Benefit comparison?"

I'd love to see his response. Particularly since a common theme here on HN is that you go to an elite school to be with intelligent, driven people; the classes are almost superfulous. You could get them via open courseware if you really wanted to be frugal.

I bring this up because according to his article the van caused him to avoid all contact outside of classes with other students for fear of being found out and reported. Seems like he isn't frugal at all, unless he just wants the cheapest path to a 'prestigious' degree and doesn't actually want the best experience he can get. But being in anything for 'prestige' seems antithetical to the type of thought pattern that would lead you to live in a van. The whole thing comes off confused (and braggardly... "60 miles north of the Artic Circle," etc., etc.)

His reply:

"Anon-I chose an expensive private school because it wasn't that expensive for me. Typically it's $3000/course but they knocked it down to about $1000/course for me because of my destitution. Public school wouldn't have been any cheaper. Another good question might be: why didn't you just try to get your school paid for like most grad students? My answer: I tried this. I applied to 6 history phd programs and 4 MFA writing programs and got denied from all of them. And I'm glad I got denied. I'm better off in Liberal Studies, which keeps me from becoming "specialized" in something, which I wish to avoid like the plague."

I have a grad-student friend who is much better off financially than the blogger, but decided to go the van route himself after reading about other van dwellers on line. I think the primary motivation was a desire to achieve as much independence as possible. He could quit his job tomorrow and not have to worry about scraping up any money for years, his only real concerns being cell phone, car insurance, gas, and food. He had other, environmental reasons (not being a consumer) for doing it as well, but basically I think you have to be obsessed with independence to take a step like this.

I admire people who are able to do it. Myself? No desire for it at all. I'm perfectly all right with the idea of interdependence.

What happens when you have to take your house in for service?

This was asked in regards to the RV link posted a month ago. He said most places that service RVs and vans are setup to work on them during the day and allow you access to it at night. Otherwise you spend a little more that week for a really cheap hotel. Big deal, it's a lot less than what you'd pay per month on average.

While the adventure of van-living is fun and the rant on loans and cost of education are true, I think you can get the education you need in a financially responsible way without having to live in a smelly van all alone. I made it through my undergrad by working part-time, living at home, and going to state and community colleges. It took me over 5 years but I had no loans of any kind at then end. Maybe that's the difference between CS and English majors.

He also said he wouldn't take his mom's money, so this was also to prove something to himself.

The adventure of van-living isn't always fun: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=917395

Dude, I’m not judging you but if you are homeless and living in a van and having trouble getting regular meals here is something that might help you out a little. It is going to get very cold soon.

There is a program called Section-8 vouchers that might be able to help you out. I think you can just pick an apartment and the state of North Carolina will pay for it. They get reimbursed by the federal government from the taxes we pay.

Here is a link from the Durham Housing Authority near Duke University: http://www.durhamhousingauthority.org/

Best of Luck

He also has a blog (which is often excellent) here:

http://spartanstudent.blogspot.com/

Most undergrads imagine they'll effortlessly pay off their loans when they start getting paid the big bucks; they're living in a state of denial, disregarding the implications of a tough job market and how many extra years of work their spending sprees have sentenced them to. But "facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored," as Aldous Huxley famously said.

No, they don't. The facts are that your prospects as an English major are, on average, fairly dim. However, your assumption that everyone will be in your position after graduation is woefully self-absorbed.

I have sympathy for my fellow students. I did many of the same things when I was an undergrad. Plus, escaping student debt -- no matter how frugal they try to be -- is nearly impossible. Even if they do resort to purchasing a large creepy van, most will still have to go tens of thousands of dollars into debt to pay for tuition.

I think not.

The idea of "thrift," once an American ideal, now seems almost quaint to many college students, particularly those at elite schools. The typical student today is not so frugal. Few know where the money they're spending is coming from and even fewer know how deep they're in debt. They're detached from the source of their money. That's because there is no source. They're getting paid by their future selves.

And? He states this like it's prima facie ridiculous. The world runs on non-liquid assets and loans. If he thinks that he's somehow permanently escaped loans and debt he is going to have a rude awakening when he goes to buy a house and needs to take out a mortgage. Of course, he could always choose never to buy a house and live in a van for the rest of his life, but that completely ruins his idea of how "sensible" he is for avoiding college loans.

In essence, if he enjoys living frugally and does it for internal reasons (Thoreau's ideal) then that is perfectly fine. However if he believes that he is somehow in a better living and financial situation than the rest of his peers he is simply deluding himself. Yes, college education is exorbitant and yes loans make take years, even decades, to pay off. However, the idea that loans are obviously a negative thing have no basis in math or economics. One can construct situations in which loans and debt result in disaster, sure, but one can also create similar situations that have no negative consequence. That is, it is not the loan itself which is prima facie negative, but the circumstances surrounding it.

Your statement "However, the idea that loans are obviously a negative thing have no basis in math or economics" seems a little odd, in that he is putatively trying to live without debt.

Mathematically speaking, the sum of the amount of money he will have left after x years is greater if he has no loans, which have interest attached to them.

Mathematically speaking, the sum of the amount of money he will have left after x years is greater if he has no loans, which have interest attached to them.

With a huge penalty in disposable income while in grad school. Spending more in the long term and spending less in the short term are two different cases -- neither of which is objectively better than the other. The better is dependent on circumstances.

Yes, loans are useful, and being permanently in debt is useful if you have an investment with a higher return higher than your loan. But it has disadvantages - it's an obligation what you have to watch over lest it runs out of control. It creates instability, as we've seen in the recent economic crisis.

Avoiding debt is just as sensible as saving money; in a way it's the exact same thing. It's a slight pain now for a massive gain later. As for a house, whatever happened to getting the money BEFORE you buy it? It's a perfectly valid choice.

Wait -- his mom offered to buy him lodging (and possibly tuition). Is it really "frugal" to turn down a place to sleep, or just shortsighted?

self-sufficient?

Well put.

Does the world not already provide enough difficult challenges? I encourage others to test themselves by endeavoring to make the world a better place.

Yes, I know that sounds condescending, but I cannot stand the author's self-absorbtion: "By making life harder for myself, I prove how macho I am!"

You're being downvoted, but I think you bring up an interesting contrarian position that I'm surprised so many here disagree with. Couldn't he be working on a startup, instead of living off rice in an ant-filled van?

> Couldn't he be working on a startup, instead of living off rice in an ant-filled van?

Why does "working on a startup" equate with "making the world a better place?"

Since the only way to make money is to provide something people want, if you are doing something that provides you with money, you are making your customers' world a better place, at least they must think so.

  I promise to take care of toxic waste for some large 
  manufacturing corporations. I take their money and 'dispose'
  of the waste. What if I dispose of the waste into waterways 
  (lakes, rivers,etc)? My customers are happy because the waste
  is taken off of their hands. If anyone ever finds out about
  the dumping, they can claim to no know anything (and they
  may well not know anything) and *I'm* the one that takes
  the fall, not them. In the meantime, they get to reap the
  benefits of cheaper disposal (since it's not being disposed
  of properly). I would hardly say that I'm making the world
  a better place though.

"happy customers" != "a better world"

So how does one make the world a better place?

Most methods I can think of cost a lot of money.

Love your wife and your children. Help out a friend. Clear your elderly neighbor's driveway in the winter. Sure, the effect is tiny, but you've got to start somewhere.

Let's say your customers are "everyone in the world," and your product is diamond rings. Your customers rank each other based on how big of a diamond ring they own. All customers want a bigger ring. When you sell one customer a slightly bigger ring he moves up a rank, and someone else correspondingly moves down a rank. In this abstract model if we assume rank is as important to each participant, you have provided no wealth.

This model corresponds well to bits and pieces of an absolutely massive portion of our economy.

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positional_good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_the_Leisure_Class

> instead of living off rice in an ant-filled van

Uh, I think you mean "instead of going to graduate school."

Plenty of people go to grad school on limited means and still manage to live in a heated, watered apartment. IMHO this whole exercise seems more like an attempt to escape consumerism (in whatever way the author has defined it), more than it is about being able to afford education.

The author is 100% clear that the exercise is an attempt to escape debt. He's got plenty of options if he just wants to afford an education.

Exactly our point. He's going to great lengths to avoid any debt, which in this society is a bit masochistic. A little debt for your future isn't going to kill you.

No, I didn't mean that at all. Loans exist for a reason. If he wants to be ultra-frugal, that's fine, but it's not necessary. Do you really believe taking a loan out for something as important as school is that terrible?

Well, he could move the van occasionally so that ants didn't set up shop inside!8-)

> but I cannot stand the author's self-absorbtion: "By making life harder for myself, I prove how macho I am!"

Aren't you projecting something unto him?

Refusing to take money from a loved one isn't shortsightedness.

"... I was only a few dollars away from having to rummage through Dumpsters to find my next meal. I was -- by conventional first-world definitions -- poor ..."

I was talking to a mate while working on his property ~ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/sets/72157621928042355... and the talk moved around to some friends we'd gone to school with. One in particular, "R" went to medical school, expensive anywhere. He mentioned the lecturer asked "R" one day why he wasn't writing anything down and found out he couldn't afford a pen. Now "R" saved for all the required medical books, clothed & fed himself but had nothing left for things like pens & paper. It didn't stop him from becoming a surgeon and rotating as an Army surgeon through the ADF.

"... To me, the van was what Kon-Tiki was to Heyerdahl, what the GMC van was to the A-Team, what Walden was to Thoreau. It was an adventure. ..."

"Kon-Tiki" ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki is a papyrus boat sailed from Morocco to Barbados by Heyerdahl as shown the film, "The Ra Expedition" ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThorHeyerdahl#TheBoatsRaandRaII

This reminds me of an experiment I did in college to see how small of a food budget I could go on while still maintaining three healthy (and delicious) meals per day.

I think I got it down to under $2/meal with a carb, protein, and veggie/fruit component to each meal. Pretty amazing when you factor in that I did ~50% of my shopping at Whole Foods. (they have quite competitive prices when it comes to frozen veggies and dried pasta)

Amazing how far money will go when you don't have very much of it.

Could you give us a sample ingredient list/menu for a typical day?

Probably involves a lot of peanut butter ;-)

haha peanut butter and... rice.

Sorry missed this reply. For those still interested.

The key to keeping down costs is to buy in bulk, something I realize is not feasible to all people because it requires frontloading much of the cost. Scale according to what you can afford.

Breakfast & Dinner Example (I'm using very very generous prices, you can find most of these items for substantially cheaper via weekly sales/coupons or costco)

Breakfast: 2 Slices of Whole Wheat Bread = $0.60 ($3 for 10 slice loaf) 2 Large Eggs = $0.33 ($2 for 1 carton) 1 Tomato = $0.50 1 Banana = $0.50 Incidentals (salt, pepper, butter) = $0.10

Breakfast Total: $2.03

Dinner

Pasta = $0.33 (1 bag of pasta at WF = ~$1 and makes about three man servings) Can of Tuna = $0.50 Frozen Veggies = $0.50 (1 bag of mixed veggies about $1.50, makes three man servings) Canned Tomatoes = $0.50 (1 can = ~$1) Shredded Cheese = $0.40 ($4 bag makes about 10 servings) Olive Oil, Salt&Pepper, = $0.10 1 clove of Garlic = $0.05

Total: $2.38

Heat oil, sautee garlic, add veggies, add pre-cooked pasta, add tuna, season, add tomatoes, check-seasoning, stir-fry and reduce the water down, throw on the cheese.

Again buy in bulk and these prices go down even more. Canned goods, frozen foods, and carbs (rice & pasta are my favorites) are dirt dirt cheap.

For extra health, replace a few meals each week with fresh produce.

I lived on $50 for 2 weeks of food one summer stretch when money was really tight. Meals weren't incredibly healthy, though :)

It's cool and all, but I've found attempting to live too sparsely compromises what I get from school. If I eat too frugally, I can't think properly. If I try to save too much on transportation by sleeping on campus, I am not well rested.

As my parents told me when I was hemming and hawing about whether or not I should buy a certain text book for a class, or try to get by without it- I'm already paying thousands and thousands of dollars in tuition and living expenses; I should get the most I can out of it, even if it means buying that $150 book.

Or, to put it more simply- penny wise, pound foolish. I've come to realize I agree; I'd rather go into debt and make the most of college than scrape by as cheap as I can, and not learn anything.

He learned to live like the homeless: tucked away in his van, quietly hoping campus security didn't notice (they probably were generously keeping an eye on him and his van for his own sake). Seems a stretch to romanticize his lifestyle vis-a-vis Thoreau, who lived in the wilds rather than a parking lot. And he's a long way from Thoreau as a writer:

"During rainstorms, I listened to millions of raindrops drum against the roof and watched them wiggle like sperm down my windows."

Caught between the security guards and the sperm, it seems a bit isolating, nearly paranoid.

Thoreau's cabin was only 45 minutes' walk outside of Concord, however.