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Comment by jonknee | Hacker News Reader

The Xbox controller is really surprising to me. Years in development and it will ship with an Xbox controller. Oculus Touch didn't even get demonstrated and "prototype" was mentioned time and again.

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That really doesn't bother me. Having used an Xbox One controller regularly, I think it is a fantastic controller, and I like that Oculus didn't feel the need to reinvent the wheel. I am excited about new interfaces other than a traditional controller though.

VR definitely needs a reinvented wheel in this case. Being able to move your head in virtual space but not your hands is clearly suboptimal, and the motion sensors in that generation of controllers are not up to the task.

My take: this a bandaid, so they can get the headset out in Q1, ahead of the proper controllers in Q2. Not what they wanted to do, but Vive forced their hand on timing.

I'm curious as to why you think that freedom of hand motion is essential for VR. Certainly I can think of many VR experiences where it would be useful, but I can think of just as many where having discreet inputs (buttons) would be preferable.

For example, a spaceship piloting game that allows the players head to rotate and look out the windows could very easily be controlled with a traditional gamepad.

I definitely agree with you that the "cockpit" games (racing, space combat, et al.), and things like Lucky's Tale are well served by the current controller, but I don't think it's going serve VR well outside of those niches. Which isn't what you want from the default, bundled controller.

Even just a few years ago most people were thinking that game genre popularity would just map into VR - i.e. Witchers and CoDs would be king. What's becoming more and more apparent is that VR is such a different medium that we need a whole new set game genres and mechanics.

For instance: locomotion with the left controller stick, head movement with the right (which the current controllers are brilliantly adapted for) is such a core controller "idiom" right now, but when applied to VR it's just horrible - a recipe for nausea and disorientation.

If you look at the kinds of experiences that are being developed around Valve's controllers, they're all huge departures from the games we currently play, and the reason is that Valve, as game designers, realized from an early point just how far back to the drawing board we need to go. VR is just too different, with different objectives (immersion), possible modes of interaction, and human weaknesses to address.

Hell, even most driving games. Why would I want to use my hands to work phantom controls rather then get the physical feed back of an xbox controller.

I for one am looking forward to GTA 5 which I'm convinced they added a first person mode to future proof against VR.

There's a whole industry around driving controllers (steering wheels, seats, gearboxes, breaks and pedals).

Because the entire VR experience is a summation of its immersive elements. Immersion in one domain (control, sound, display) can make up for immersive shortcomings in another domain.

I'm curious as to why you think that freedom of hand motion is essential for VR.

It also great increases the chances of hitting something while you're waving you arms around...

Interestingly enough, it looks like it will be wireless, which currently isn't possible with the PC. The Xbox One controller is only wireless for Xbox, the drivers/wireless receiver aren't available for PC. I wonder if they partnered with Microsoft to make it wireless?

A wireless receiver was recently announced for the Xbox One controller. It will be released later this year.

http://majornelson.com/2015/06/09/new-xbox-one-1tb-console-u...

Microsoft announced a wireless adapter for PC a couple of days ago http://www.anandtech.com/show/9358/microsoft-launches-update...

It'll be Windows 10 only (which has a lot of people speculating that Oculus Rift may be Windows 10 only).

> I like that Oculus didn't feel the need to reinvent the wheel

Fair point, but instead of a custom controller you could use any old controller you have lying around. Bundling it just increases the price.

It could have been possible to rebrand or restyle the controller to actually match the headset. It's a bit strange to buy something from them which you could get on a store shelf in Walmart for years. Make it exclusive somehow.

Since OR is under Facebook, and Facebook has been fairly Microsoft friendly in the past (opting for bing maps and some office docs stuff etc), it doesn't seem like a huge surprise, especially since Sony/PS4 has their own thing in development (Morpheus)

I guess this also explains the earlier announcement dropping OSX and Linux support.

I think it is more than Facebook being MS "friendly". Like it or not, Windows is still the dominant platform for PC gaming period. As much as many would like this to change, it is not even close to happening.

Oculus not bothering means they're just part of why it's not happening.

Valve on the other hand seems to fully embrace OSX/Linux (with both Steam and the Vive) and have done plenty to improve gaming on those platforms.

I think I know which HMD I'll be purchasing.

Fair enough but I don't think a display is the place to start when trying to change something like this.

I am sure the Vive will be great, but let's face it the vast majority of titles on Steam are Windows only. Valve may like the idea of Linux gaming, but they push a lot of Windows games...

Its not just the display. I'm presuming there will be a whole ecosystem of games designed with the Rift in mind. By making it Windows only you effectively tell all those developers not to bother developing their games for OS X or Linux.

> I'm presuming there will be a whole ecosystem of games designed with the Rift in mind.

I think developers should not bother developing for Rift then. There are alternatives which are cross platform and not beholden to MS walled gardens.

Stronger competition will make them change this stupid attitude.

That is just it though, is not a stupid attitude because the market that cares about this sort of thing and buys games is very small. Most of the complainers on HN do not play games. Over 95% of machines using the steam platform are windows.

I play all my games on Linux, so I have little respect for those who treat Linux users as third class citizens.

Vive doesn't support Linux or MacOS.

The Xbox One controller isn't the only controller for PC gaming. It isn't even the only Xbox controller for PC gaming.

Sure, but it is the best one (considering both hardware and drivers/game support).

Come on man, give credit where credit is due.

The XBox One controller has to be plugged in to work on Windows, which kills its utility for me. Can't play from the couch.

Well the Rift ships in Q1 2016. So by the time it comes out, you will have access to the Wireless PC adapter they announced coming this fall.

Oh, cool!

Dropping Linux support means dropping SteamBox support? Wow, I'm stunned.

Isn't Valve also working on their own hardware, "SteamVR", with HTC? (While Samsung is cooperating with Oculus)

SteamBox is Vaporware anyway

It will be interesting to watch this relationship as Microsoft's HoloLens develops.

The two don't really overlap.

Rift is likely to be purely gaming/social. HoloLens seems to be far more productivity/goal driven.

Microsoft owns a couple of % of Facebook.

Why reinvent the wheel? The xbox controller is widely considered the gold standard.

Exactly; Microsoft invested approximately $100 million into development of the Xbox One controller[0], and it shows.

[0] - http://www.gamesradar.com/video-designing-xbox-one-controlle...

The Xbox One controller is certainly good, but the mini-trackpad-button-hybrid on the PS4 controller is a real touch of genius in interacting with menus, when support is properly implemented.

Really? What games have you found that the trackpad has worked well on? I haven't played too many PS4 games, but every game that's implemented that trackpad hasn't done it in a way that I feel like it's been to my benefit.

So far games haven't really taken advantage of it, except to gain two more buttons (it can sense which side you're pressing down on). But the built-in keyboard uses it, for example, which makes typing a breeze.

The potential is there, it's just up to developers to actually use it. Keep in mind that the PS4 didn't even have a single truly good exclusive game until Bloodborne came out recently. It's taking this new generation of consoles a long time to really kick off.

The DualShock 4 is arguably even a better PC controller than the Xbox controllers. Its out-of-the-box support is decent, but it really shines when paired with ds4drv for Linux or DS4Windows (both open source tools), which allow you to play Xbox controller games, use the touchpad as a mouse, set LED colors, and create macros/profiles.

ds4drv: https://github.com/chrippa/ds4drv

DS4Windows: http://ds4windows.com/

The X360 controller is/was the gold standard, the XBONE controller has more mixed reviews. I personally prefer Sony's DS4 to the XBONE controller (for next-gen controllers). But I still keep an X360 controller around.

I think the GameCube had the best controller ever.

The gold standard is Nintendo's controllers, not Microsoft's.

Xbox 360 controller was the go-to reference controller for pretty much any PC-released games in last 5 or so years - mostly due to it's automatic integration with XInput protocol used by pretty much everyone. I guess the only limiting factor why it wasn't replaced by the One controller is the fact that the PC receiver hasn't been released yet.

Nintendo never made anything that would connect to PCs.

Really? I certainly liked the N64 and Gamecube controllers, but they're not exactly ideal designs for a "universal controller". The wiimote had kind of crappy motion controls and was borderline useless for anything that didn't involve motion. The Wii U uses upgraded wiimotes that suffer the same problem, and the gamepad is more like a giant gameboy than a controller. Plus we can't use any of those controllers on a PC without additional adapters or significant hardware hacks. The Xbox 360 (and to a similar degree Xbox One) controller is designed to be universal, and if you look at what people are using for PC gaming it's pretty much just those two.

The Wiimote is just a bluetooth device, there's no hardware hack or adapter necessary to connect it to a PC, you just need a driver. Not that I ever used it outside of an emulator.

Wii U Pro Controller sure beats what we have with the PS4 and XBox one controllers.

Nintendo controllers are god tier in quality, reliability, and unique integration with games. When I see the Xbox controllers all I can think of are Microsoft Sidewinders.

I was equally surprised by the on-ear style headphones. I'm sure the design team thought about the choice in depth and has good reasons behind it, but I would have imagined over-ear to be better for immersion (personally I find them more comfortable as well).

The technical terms are supra-aural (on-ear) and circum-aural (around the ears). Both can be sound-wise excellent, but circum-aural is definitely more comfortable.

I used to own a pair of Joe Grado HP-1 HP-1000 supra-aural headphones and they were excellent and did a great job with binaural recordings. Since selling those, I moved on to the Denon D7000 circum-aural headphones. Far more comfortable. Bar none the best audio experience I have had was with AKG K-1000s hooked up to 75-watt tubes monoblocks. However, that wouldn't have worked for VR presence because of the latency from the tubes. With solid state speaker amps to keep the audio in sync, the presence would probably be unreal, assuming the K-1000s do well with binaural recordings, but that is something I'm uncertain of.

I'm not arguing about sound quality though. When I said "immersion" I was thinking about over-ear headphones generally having better isolation than on-ear.

Sounds quality isn't really dependent on circumaural vs supra-aural headphones. The major complaint I hear with supra-aural headphones is that they apply pressure on the ears, which can be unconfortable. Sound quality, however, is largely affected by the drivers.

Will these apply much pressure on the ears? Many headphones use the earpieces to stay in place, but these are positioned by the Rift's straps which should be able to do it without pressure from the earpieces.

This is correct. It's called listening fatigue.

It's not just listening fatigue from sound, but the pressure applied to the ear-lobes. I have used circum-aural headphones that I can use for hours upon hours since they were very comfortable (no pressure) and were not too bright or forward that they caused listening fatigue.

Yes, I have a pair of Grado S60 (supra-aural) which are by far my best sounding headphones, but I cannot use them for many hours on end for this reason, as loose as I try to set them, they eventually become uncomfortable.

Its about the noise canceling.

At least now we know why they went Windows-only for the time being

If you think that's the only reason, you should look into the additional dev costs of building modern games on mac and linux.

What is really needed IMHO is a mind-reader. Something simple that would detect brain waves and allow you to move around. That way one could aim by turning your head and move by thinking about it.

I know tech. has some way to go before it gets there, but that is the missing piece that would make this the next level of computing (and probably one that would cause Half Life 3 to finally show up).

Head turning without thinking about it would probably induce motion sickness. I think something the earlier Rifts taught us (through low framerates, lack of head tracking, etc.) is that our brains freak out if there are any significant inconsistencies between our movements and what our eyes see.

"The oculus will ship with...

A wireless....

Xbox one controller"

I closed out of the stream at that point.

You might want to get that checked out.

Turn around and sell the Xbox controller on ebay if you feel the need, nothing says the two are wedded or the controller is required to use Oculus.

It's not 1997; wireless controllers aren't shit and Microsoft makes good hardware and has some great software.

Not sure why I'm getting downvoted and why you think I'm saying the controller is bad.

Oculus keeps spreading tons of hype and making very disappointing announcements.

A bundled xbox one controller is nothing to get excited over. Their supposed new input is, but they had virtually nothing to show for that.

>Not sure why... you think I'm saying the controller is bad

Because it caused you to abandon the livestream literally at the very beginning.

I for one agree with you. They punted on the controller in order to make the release, and their prototype controllers look underwhelming in comparison.

It feels like they've cut corners in an effort to beat Valve's VR platform to market.

Except they're not beating Valve to market. Vive should be released for the holiday season 2015 alongside the Steam Machines.

Rift won't be here until Q1 2016 (and their input solution later still).

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