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Comment by javajosh | Hacker News Reader

Tim Bray or not, it's irresponsible to point out a pile of shit without pointing to a shovel. (And for the record I disagree that there is a pile of shit. I see a bazaar of indy components.)

The browser exists in open opposition to iOS and Android, technically, culturally, and stewardship-wise. No-one in their right mind is going to pick a web host that charges you 30% of revenue. And yet, that's what Apple has managed to get (and they just control the BLOB distribution channel, they don't even provide runtime servers!).

The whole shebang is sorting itself out and I for one think it's going to be very, very cool.

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> it's irresponsible to point out a pile of shit without pointing to a shovel.

That's not true in general, but since in this case Tim Bray seems to be implicitly proposing an alternative of sorts (never mind whether it's in fact any better) that isn't really relevant. For what it's worth, this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2119057 is the correct solution.

I disagree that it is irresponsible - only because it is much easier to point out the pile than to point out a shovel. The old generation can say "we built a pile of shit" and ask the next generation to do a much better job - I find that totally reasonable. And I suspect that the next generation will do so. I'm pretty sure that in a lab or basement somewhere there is a growing seed.

I think that if Motif and Motif Tools had not had such restrictive licenses, then we never would have ended up with this pile. We would have started from a much better place, and been further along by now.

I do agree with your other points.

> it's irresponsible to point out a pile of shit without pointing to a shovel.

Nope, try another metaphor: you have the right to flinch away when something stinks, even if you don't know where the nearest rose garden is.

(That said, I think he's wrong. JavaScript has a hell of a lot going for it right now, and CSS and the DOM are starting to take advantage of the effects of that.)

> No-one in their right mind is going to pick a web host that charges you 30% of revenue.

Eh? What stops you from publishing a free app with ads?

Integrity? User experience?

Nobody seems to care about that on the web.

People pick that "web host" because the platform you think is so great sucks ass. People have said this morass of nonsense was sorting itself out since gmail came on the scene. Things have been sorting out for web apps before mobile was even a viable thing.

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