Am I the only one here who finds these do more harm than good? I specifically avoid cons to boycott this political correctness.
Its also a slap in the face to the maturity of python developers. I'm offended to read it.
Frankly, I don't want my pic blasted around the world for a joke.
Raising a good community is extremely challenging, lots of people feel excluded and making an inclusive conference is an extremely challenging task - it's also super important for the atmosphere.
I would hope conferences want to filter actual harrassers, not people who feel uneasy about the slight social engineering and censorship undertones of Codes of Conduct.
saying "don't yell racial epithets" and "don't tell women to make you a sandwich" is not even close to censorship. That's called being a decent person
I understand and emphasize the need for a comfortable experience for all members of the conference.
However, I'd like to present you and others with a hypothetical scenario. The CoC states "Harassment includes offensive verbal comments related to ... religion...".
Simple and factual statement that scientology is a total sham (this statement can be easily extended towards most organized religions) would put the speaker in violation of the CoC. Does that seem reasonable to you?
Lots of people will spend several days together on a cruise ship. They will get acquainted, exchange opinions, drink, have fun, socialize, discuss various topics they are interested in. Developers are human, you know, not some wet-ware apis limited to development/programming topics.
I guess it would be harder to deal with for someone giving a talk, but contrive away why it is necessary for a talk about python to make simple factual statements about various religions.
Let's not simplify and make a more elaborate analysis.
Ok, so you propose that developers do not talk about:
* religion (scientology)
* gender relations (meta-discussion about CoC, dongle incident, gender pronouns, etc)
* politics (gay rights, abortion, etc )
* some health topics (anti-vaxxers, homeopathy, obesity epidemic etc)
* sexual topics (the ultimate transgression)
Do you not understand the possible chilling effects of such policy? Do you not feel that developers should be able to converse and disagree without fear of being labeled as a CoC offender and a non-decent person?
Aren't these reasonable questions? Please respond without straw-man arguments about sexual harassment, as that is only a subset of the CoC
I don't think a CoC makes such conversations impossible, interested parties won't be offended. Sure, it could easily go too far, with mild transgressions being reported left and right (ya know, instead of the person just demurring or bowing out of the conversation), but I think it is fair to say that you've then discovered that those aren't reasonable, interesting people to be talking to.
What it does is make it impossible for party A to follow party B around, repeatedly calling their beliefs a sham (notice the follow around and repeatedly) and then defend their behavior as appropriate because their statements were truthful and couth (basically, being an ass and then standing on the ceremony of politeness).
If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend!
My experience is that I feel unwelcome at such events. Instead of being able to speak to my peers honestly and openly, instead I make a point to do so as much as possible in a private setting, lest I break some protocol that I'm not even aware of and end up reprimanded as a result.
I mean no offense to anyone, and go out of my way to avoid offending. I'm not seeking permission to do something improper, nor am I ashamed of my words or actions - I'm saying that as a white male, my actions are held to a very different and seemingly arbitrary standard.
There's a reason I post this sort of topic using a separate account. Every conversation I've had with this part of the community has been antagonistic toward me as soon as it is discovered that I'm a member of the racial/gender group that is most heavily disfavored.
It seems just as easy for a statement made with no CoC in place to have consequences.
This should be a wake up call for you to reconsider your position.
"If you don't think the other participants are going to mostly be reasonable and that staff are going to be reasonable about dealing with mild complaints, don't attend!"
Can you guess HN reaction to your comment if you would offer same advice to a woman in the context of "sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes"?
I might separately be critical of the group for the exercise, but it would be highly contextual and depend on what their aim was.
On paper, diversity and sensitivity is great. I'm a free market capitalist, but the communist manifesto is still the most just draft I've ever read.
However, we don't live in a vacuum.
BSD, perl, c, linux, python, you name it. These projects welcome all and always have. We dont need a code of conduct. We hate how you jinx our cooperation and success.
By the way: Frankly my own black girlfriend loves cooking. I eat together with her family, and we tease each other all the time at the dinner table. Chicken, collared greens, Pepsi.
I've never felt so loved. Instead of tucking my balls between my legs, we laughed like hyenas over wars between our races. Dad was like "gimme my damn food woman!!"
Our dinner was on paper, racist. But our expression brought us closer, and its worth more than 160 characters. Political correctness is a pressure cooker strangling both our families' necks.
So your definition of censorship seems to be: "leting others call me on my bullshit". That is an odd definition.
An outsider who doesn't program Python eaves drops two Python programmers. She interjected, took a photo without permission. Who bullied who?
Outsiders from twitter and political wiki's who don't program try to hijack the discourse of a community on the forefront of diversity. Open source already welcomed programmers. What are we to make of these outsiders?
Codes of conduct are welcome bait for professional victims and attention seekers with no intention of coding.
Would you be convinced if I compiled the statistics in a blog post?
Look on github at pycon code of conduct. See adria Richards in the logs?
Look up the blog post where they pulled the pycon code of conduct from geekfeminism wiki.
Lives have been ruined, in part because the integrity of these projects are being lost to outside pressures distracting us from accomplishing technical goals.
Python community is and has been open and diverse. We even let non-programmers into them and real programmers have been fired.
If you do support codes of conduct, know that its not needed. Civility is and has always been apart of hacker culture.
We don't care what you look like. We care if you code. We help each other.
https://github.com/python/pycon-code-of-conduct/commits/mast...
All I see that is even remotely related to the dongle incident are the commits like this one, asking attendees to bring issues to the conference staff:
https://github.com/python/pycon-code-of-conduct/commit/69c32...
Thank you
I don't understand the issue that someone would have with these words unless they're looking to do something that is prohibited. Is a conservative mindset where they're looking to keep things the way they were? Do they feel that taking the effort to be as inclusive as possible hinders growth? What's the beef?
Of course, the people writing the codes of conduct are speaking for themselves, not the perceived group identity mentioned above, and the poster is attempting to speak on behalf of the group they see, probably without carefully apprehending the range of opinions that exist within the group.
I'd also consider the idea that much of the push back is disingenuous sophistry coming from people that enjoy going to conferences and hassling people.