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Comment by belorn | Hacker News Reader

I remember reading a feminist opinion piece that economic dependency should be equivalent to abuse, and thus should be treated in similar way we handle drug abuse or alcohol abuse. A adult with their health intact should support themselves, and choosing not to do so will put the person at higher risk for unbalanced relationships, lower self-esteem, and increase gender inequality.

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Realistically we live in a society where a minority of people can really support themselves; most people actually rely on some sort of subsidy (be it tax breaks, welfare, social security).

Maybe we should instead practice substitution therapy, i.e. basic income?

Yes, please to basic income. Economic dependency is a problem for both women and men. Many people stay in unhappy and unhealthy relationships because of money, and many people stay in jobs that they hate and that are harmful to society because of money.

I spend my time around a lot of feminist circles, and I would say that most feminists don't believe this. They would suggest that economic dependency should be a choice, and if so, there is a viable alternative for them if that choice ends up not working out.

Personally I think the reasonable argument would be that women should be able to reach the same status as men in the article if they choose to do so, without the socioeconomic barriers to entry that they will inevitably face in the process. If women in society have absolutely no choice but to depend on men economically, then that's where the problem is.

I think you're wrong on this one. @FemFreq heavily promoted this article on Twitter (getting 512 RTs and 780+ favorites): https://theconversation.com/no-feminism-is-not-about-choice-... which includes this quote:

"In the book, which I co-edited, 20 of us take on different topics that have become part of the “choice feminism” landscape: from pornography and prostitution, to female genital mutilation, from women’s magazines and marriage, to sexual violence. While coming from a range of different perspectives, we all critique the notion that “choice” should be the ultimate arbiter of women’s freedom."

The TLDR version: there are no real choices for women as they're limited by their status in society, etc. The idea of "choice" is comical to them.

If "most feminists" believe choice is the key freedom, they better speak out or risk being drowned out.

Your own quote shows that this tweet is a fringe attack against a theme in feminism - it is a counter against 'choice feminism'. It's clearly a statement by a edge concept against a central theme.

>If "most feminists" believe choice is the key freedom, they better speak out or risk being drowned out.

Indeed, also in your link is the quote (in only the second paragraph): "Read almost any online article about feminism and the comments will soon devolve into a debate about choice.". It seems that the feminists are already doing what you're demanding, but you're... ahem... choosing to ignore them to make your point.

Anyway, if you read the article, it says the same thing that your quoted section does - that choice itself isn't bad, but that it should stop being used as the 'ultimate arbiter', including examples where the author considers 'but it's her choice' to be undermining feminism. She doesn't say 'choice' is bad, but her argument is to stop having 'choice' used as a trump card.

Simone de Beauvoir, famous feminist thinker, said that no woman should be allowed to stay at home with her children because it would be too easy and comfortable. (quoted from memory, not sure about the exact words).

Equality of choice is just one kind of equality. The trick is to pick between choice and outcome equality as it benefits you the most.

I highly doubt that this is the kind of economic dependence that they were referring to.

There are many more women who choose to forego their own education or career advancement to stay at home to raise a family, and without the income of their husband would be destitute. If their husband becomes abusive, for example, they can be quite literally trapped in the relationship because they have no other means of supporting themselves or their children.

In contrast, the women in the article seem to be perfectly capable of leaving whenever they choose. Many of them have excellent education and career experience, and many of them also come from wealthy families who could help them. In the event of divorce, many of them would undoubtedly collect sizable settlements from prenups and possibly alimony.

There's nothing wrong with the choice that they've made, but it remains a choice.

Funny considering how terribly drug addiction is handled. Many people choose to be addicts and are very content with the tradeoffs, if any, they make.

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