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Comment by a3n | Hacker News Reader

You may believe this. I may misunderstand you.

But statements like this are one of the reasons people are reluctant to get help. My problem is bullshit. I'm weak. What will people think?

Regardless of whether the "reasons" or problems are real (to you) or imagined bullshit, people do kill themselves over it.

Don't perpetuate an environment that discourages people from getting help. They're already not thinking rationally.

Which do you think will produce more survivors and thrivers:

"You're problems are probably bullshit."

"You should talk to a professional."

Let the professional decide if it's bullshit or not, and lead the person to the right treatment.

EDIT: removed swearing.

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Listen. To anyone reading this thread, and similar threads in the past and future. The discussion may be amusing to you, or perplexing, or frustrating. It may even be pulling you down.

If you feel like you're going to harm yourself, call 911 right away, or whatever your local emergency number is.

If you are having issues, get help. Ignore all this talk. Maybe you're depressed. Maybe you just think you're an asshole, because it's hard for people to be around you and hard for you to be around people. That's not natural, we're social animals. It's not "wrong," it's a symptom.

Don't second guess yourself, don't overthink it, don't try to tough your way through, get help right away. If you have access to a doctor that's probably the easiest way to start. The doctor may treat you himself, or he may recommend some other treatment. The point of the initial visit is evaluation. They're trained to do this.

If you don't have easy access to a doctor or other professional, don't give up. If you're working then your employer may have an Employee Assistance Program. They're free, and you can get a few initial visits with an appropriate professional. EAP usually offers lots of unrelated services, including legal advice, so don't hesitate to ask HR or whoever for the brochure or information, they won't know why you want it.

You may have to go through your county's assistance resources, and that's potentially frustrating, but do it and be persistent. Get a friend or relative to help you navigate.

Me: My car won't start. I need to get rid of it.

Mechanic: Actually all we need to do is replace this solenoid. You should probably change the oil a little more often too. The car is actually pretty good.

Me: Oh, good. I'm glad I asked a professional. I kind of like this car, and I'd like to keep it.

>But statements like this are one of the reasons people are reluctant to get help. My problem is bullshit. I'm weak. What will people think? Regardless of whether the "reasons" or problems are real (to you) or imagined bullshit, people do kill themselves over it.

How does that change what I wrote? Is it the "to you" qualifier? As if things can't be objectively BS as reasons to commit suicide?

People kill themselves over all kinds of BS and not just by suicide. This includes nationalism, religion, and even as idiotic things as "dares".

In fact Tim in the article even admits about his own situation being BS. And it didn't take some huge experience to make him see that, or treatment, or medication: just a phone call from his mother.

Empathy is understanding that they feel really bad -- it doesn't mean justyfing the causes of that feeling too.

If you want to help people you need to make them see the BS-ness of those things (e.g. a failing grade), not overdramatize them as legitimate life-ending situations for them out of misguided empathy.

"As if things can't be objectively BS as reasons to commit suicide?"

You can't rationalize suicide attempts away. Just don't. Showing you care is good. Kindness is good. Any attempt at hard love or such is a recipe for disaster.

Because there is a very good chance you can't tell whether a person is clinically depressed or not. It is very common that they mask this during work etc. and when they get home they just crumble. There are three ways out of this: the person gets better by themselves, they kill themselves or they get medical attention and get better.

It is good to suggest medical attention. It is very bad to suggest anything that like that their feelings are due to bullshit reasons because depressed people can channel this into pure self loathing. It's a medical condition because you cannot rationalize it away.

Do. Not. Tell. Them. That they are making bullshit reasons. That will be a pretty strong disincentive to go to seek medical attention. It will probably make themselves even worse off.

Objectively "BS"? What does that even mean? You need to get a grip and stop your anger towards people who are feeling terrible. If you don't recognize the kind of imagery (the manly-man imagery) that is typically associated with your choice of words, please take a moment to reflect on it. You cannot say "I empathize with you. By the way your reasons for feeling this way are total BS" in the same breath and have any semblance of actual empathy. You feel yourself a clever wordsmith, I'm afraid, who packs a gun called "tough love".

>Objectively "BS"? What does that even mean?

It means that as far as things to commit suicide for go, a failing grade in some assignment or a rejection in high school, are not very important in the grand scheme of life. If someone attempts suicide over the loss of his family, it's more understandable than attempting suicide because you were rejected for The Voice.

>You need to get a grip and stop your anger towards people who are feeling terrible.

I'm not sure what you are projecting here. Qualifying something is not anger, and I'm not talking to people "who are feeling terrible", I'm talking to people on a HN thread. This is a discussion. It's not very polite to assume things and feelings for the other end.

>You cannot say "I empathize with you. By the way your reasons for feeling this way are total BS" in the same breath and have any semblance of actual empathy.

Yeah, because lots of people never took their friends aside (or vice versa) to try and help them overcome a dark patch, including suicidal thoughts and depression, by putting things in perspectove for them. So their version of empathy is "Don't bother me, go see a doctor and take your meds".

This conversation is like it's taking place in a bizarro alternative universe, when all suicide is caused by tangible chemically induced depression (which is the only form of depression in that universe too), and people never overdramatize their circumstances.

This might be an 21st century American thing, were individuals must absolutely remove any societal and personal causes for their situation. In these parts of Europe we find it OK for friends to help us see clearly what's trivial and what's not, and we had similar philosophies down to the time of Epicurus.

Whether or not somebodies sense of depression is triggered by something "trivial" or "stupid", it is likely genuinely causing them distress. Personally I wouldn't pull my friend aside and say, "Hey man you seem down, but the fact that you just broke up with your girlfriend is a total BS reason to be upset". Perhaps we are only differing in the way we like to describe the situation, but your language comes across as being unnecessarily "macho".

> It means that as far as things to commit suicide for go, a failing grade in some assignment or a rejection in high school, are not very important in the grand scheme of life.

Of course it's not that important. But that's not why they're killing themselves. That's just one more thing to push them over the edge. Behind it is a fundamental problem, and it's that problem that's making them vulnerable to something that seems trivial.

Please try to understand that.

You are framing the discussion in a certain way, and then attacking other people for things they haven't said, and doing so aggressively and from a position of staggering ignorance. The fact you cite Laing is telling - he's almost totally discredited now.

1) when you find someone who is actively planning a suicide you have a choice. Keep them alive until they get to a professional, or treat them yourself. You wouldn't (I assume) stick a pen through the eye of someone having a heart attack, but that's the rough equivalent of what you're recommending people do to suicidal people.

2) treatment for suicidality has two components. i) keep them alive until meds and therapy can take effect. ii) give them meds and therapy. Suicide prevention is wider. If you're talking about suicide prevention as a public health measure you should probably state that. If you don't know the words to use to specify what you're talking about that should be a clue that perhaps you don't know what you're fucking talking about and should perhaps be a bit less arrogant.

3) as part of keeping someone alive until they can get help: there are things that we know mostly work, and things that we know mostly don't work. "Low grades? That's a bullshit reason to die! They're not that low; you can retake them; I got worse grades and I love my awesome job so your career path could be like that!" is something that we know mostly does not work. We know because we talk to survivors of suicide. Since there are 112 Americans per day who die by suicide we have plenty of people to talk to. If telling people their opinions was bullshit did anything to change their minds you and other people wouldn't be having this discussion - you'd have changed their mind or they'd have changed yours.

4) reactive depression is still depression. It's still an illness. The cure for reactive depression is to change the thing causing the reaction, but also provide evidence based techniques to build resiliance.

5) if just telling people they were wrong worked we wouldn't have had such a high deathrate from anorexia. About 1 in 5 people with this anxiety disorder die from it (this number is going down)

> be an 21st century American thing, were individuals must absolutely remove any societal and personal causes for their situation. In these parts of Europe we find it OK for friends to help us see clearly what's trivial and what's not, and we had similar philosophies down to the time of Epicurus.

There are reasons for the high death rate to suicide in most (but not all!) parts of the US, and this probably is not one of them. Decreased access to treatment; poor quality treatment; judgemental and stigmatizing views; increased use of criminal justice instead of mental health treatment; easy access to means and methods; etc etc.

> just a phone call from his mother.

Anecdote of one. Everyone is different.

> you need to make them see the BS-ness of those things

No, I don't need to make anyone see anything. And if they're anywhere near suicide, they don't need that message from me, they need professional help. Things are not rational, by definition, and they're dangerous. Don't fuck around with this, it's not a rationality petri dish or a debate.

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